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Old 01-02-2008, 05:40 PM #106
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PBoldtimer: First thanks for bringing about conversation vs. "NO U!" Although I was hoping for more questions about the actual guide itself, this debate is welcome as well.

"The problem with this thread is that it reads like a 'how to' manual."

That's the idea


"YOU used the word "scumbag" because you know that these tactics are underhanded and shady."

Underhanded is a strong word. Shady yes, calouse yes, proberly a couple other negative words yes. I wouldn't call it underhanded, cheating, or even cheap. It's not like I'm saying "pull a deadmans walk because that's awesome!"


"You didn't outplay anybody. You manipulated the rules to suit your own purposes."

Ok, so aside from stealing an ID card or fabricating one, both of which are a-ok by many rulebooks, what rules are really being manipulated? What if I told you this could even be pulled off without saying "I'm not a spy." I don't even need to say "I'm on your team" a majority of the time when this is pulled off right.

This really isn't a guide on how to manipulate the rules. Up until I got attacked for "cheating" I don't think I even mentioned a grey area other than the whole ID card shick everyone got caught on. It's a guide on how to manipulate people at a scenario game. That's what spying is about, that's what roleplaying is about, and that's what makes scenario awesome.

You can adjust this guide to help or hurt a target. You can adjust this to help in the role of spy or the role of walker texas ranger. How to move groups of people and have them thinking how you want, how to manipulate information getting to targets, how to garner trust and keep it through misdirection and rewards. These are all components any good role player has to be well versed in.

I wrote it from the point of view of using the skill set to be a scum bag spy because that's what I used to roleplay until people really figured out who I was and what I was doing. I also got bored as hell. Using the same skills I learned as a spy though I can roleplay a nuetral "good guy" charecter and have done so a couple times without a hitch. I got bored of being a scumbag because in a lot of aspects it's like being a command person and that's no fun for me.

So is it really not outplaying someone just because I got them to walk around field X for half an hour instead of shooting them and taking them out of play for the same amount of time? Is it really not outplaying someone when you stop a good amount of missions going out by replacing real mission cards with fake ones as you get them? I think so, and your free to feel otherwise, but end of the day if someone pulls this off good they'll make more of an impact than most teams. I call that outplaying a group myself.


"Now how many people are going to read this thread and think this is the coolest thing ever. Then they'll pass out this information so as to become widespread. Then instead of just several people employing these tactics, we have scores or hundreds. What will THAT scenario game be like?"


While that would properly never happen due to the natural born charecteristics you really need to pull this off... That would be awesome. It would be awesome if suddenly everyone wasn't there for red v. blue but was there for the game. That's why I posted this guide in the first place

As I've said, hopefully it won't reach diabolical proportions but honestly I see the chance of that happening as quite slim. This is harder to pull off than it used to be, takes a ridiculous amount of effort and time, and is completely thankless. I don't see a lot of the lone paintball players I've met/know jumping at a chance for that awesome job.


"As far as others thinking I'm over dramatizing this issue becasue not many people know about these sort of tactics and therefore won't become upset by them... just take a look at how many hits this thread has. Each hit a another potential 'scumbag.'"

I think a lot more people came here to shout "NO U" than to read the guide but you have a better attitude about it.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:34 AM #107
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Do you realize, PBoldtimer, how hard it is to do some of the things 10 shot has done. If 200 hundred folks have read this "guide", 2 of them maybe able to pull off the misdirection and confidence like 10 shot. I would hope that the other 198 would now at least think about the guide before being misled with these tricks.
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:42 AM #108
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Remember, I tend to look at everything from a ref's point of view... mostly because I am a ref. Believe it or not, there's more to reffing than just "you're out!" Mostly, refs are there to keep the peace, and make sure that the players are happy. It becomes arduous (how's that for a fancy word) to calm a small group of people down who realized that they've been duped for the past two hours by following around a fake mission card. Its not the spy that has to deal with these people after the fact, its usually the refs that have to listen to these people drone on and on about how others are "cheating." I put the word "cheating" in quotes because there seems to be some contention on what actaully constitutes cheating. One man's cheating is another man's creativity. All I'm saying is can't we avoid all this and just play some straight-up paintball. And this doesn't mean that we can't role play, I'm suggesting that there are ways to role play without pissing everybody off.
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Old 01-04-2008, 03:08 PM #109
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PBoldtimer: Now that I know who you are I completely understand where your coming from.

Yes the lowest common denominators whining and crying makes a refs job harder, and this is a bad side effect of this style of play. Who is to blame though? The player playing the game smarter or the group that gets taken advantage of not being able to deal with how stupid they are and complaining endlessly to underpaid refs. Or is it really a problem arising from fields making big games and calling them scenarios?

On the subject of who is to blame though, the smarter player or the LCD, we're obviously in disagreement.
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:26 PM #110
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I see nothing wrong here.

The only people who would be scream "cheater!" about any of this are the players who have absolutely no understanding of this game. If a event producer is in favor of these tactics and play styles, then there's no reason for a ref to put an end to it or try to keep it from happening because he or she feels its too hard to keep the peace. Learn to be a better Ref or get better Refs.

I'll admit, two years ago I would have been screaming cheater if I saw this stuff being done on the field. But today, I understand what Scenario is, or at least what is was and I want to see more of what is once was. When we can start looking beyond the idea that paintball rules are the same as when we were playing CTF at some rec field, then we can start to understand that this is NOT the same game. I am looking forward to learning, understanding and implementing the ideas and tactics of the old days.
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:47 AM #111
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Note: by roleplayer I'm not talking about roleplayers like medics, engineers, or other similar roles in this thread.

One question I've been asked outside this thread, and one that isn't covered so well in the guide, is "how do I get the generals trust as a nuetral role player?" I found that the guide doesn't go over this very well and in the intrest of educating the generall populace decided this would be a good question to cover on the open forum.

quick overview

Gaining trust is the most important thing you have to do to roleplay correctly. I can have no props, no special powers, nada and with trust alone be an important force on the field. It is the reason why trust is so seldomly given, espicially to those who have an obvious capability and motivation to play both sides. It can take half a game to get trust and a moment to ruin it.

The main question you have to ask yourself before going through the time consuming, and generally irritating process, of gathering tust is "why do I need to do this?" If your doing it to score 50 points a team, it's not worth it. If your doing it on the other hand to play your role it's very important. Another question to consider within this one is who do you need to get trust from in order to do what you do.

The generall is always the lowest priority person you need to get trust with. First off it takes the most time, time you can be using for more important things, to get the generals trust. Secound by getting others trust you generally automatically get the generalls. If the key players on a team trust you, the XO trusts you, and thus the general will come to trust you. Third the only reason for getting the generalls trust is to have direct contact with a teams intel, props (think cash flow), and the highest level of things. If I havn't been clear enough dicking with the high level stuff is risky.

how much and from whom do you need?

This is the very first question you need to answer, generally on the fly, and it's therefore the most important. Answering this question wrong can lead to your game being limited, no fun, long time hostility, and most importantly loss of game time. Very seldom do you need the trust of the general, even though it's the paramount achievment of a roleplayer. For this reason, unless your specific role dictates oherwise, don't waste the time.

Neutral roleplayers generally are the ones that require, at the midpoint of the game, trust from the general. Team specific roleplayers, except spys, almost never need the trust of a general. Team biased roleplayers on the other hand vary depending on what your going to do. I'll go over each type latter on in this post

general difficulties

Now first off I have to say if your on a team this is very hard to pull off. Any general is going to not trust you if he knows you have out of game personal reasons not to help him or dick him over. If your team is on the other side, and he knows your on that team, he may never trust you.

A general may also never trust you if years ago you dicked everyone at a game over and he knows it. Descretion when pulling stunts on the field is so very important for this reason. This doesn't just mean "I put a bomb in your base lol" it also means if you've lied severly to him or someone else in the past. This is one of the reasons it's so important to have an "escape hatch" of some sort, like not lying off field, so trust can be garnered when needed. This can be important even when our not roleplaying so never dick with your escape hatch and only use it when it's serious.

A general may also just not trust you until you go through a stupid process. Stupid processes are time consuming and ment to disaude people meaning to dick the general over from trying to get his trust. Stupid jobs, going through ridiculous security, going to the top of a hill and reciting hell marys are examples. Stupid processes may seem to be pointless, as they are stupid by deffenition, but their end product (trust) makes it worth the time.

gaining trust

The main difficulty is that in order to get a generalls trust he has to precieve you as an asset worth risking it on. Just as it's not worth you taking the time to get his trust for 50 points it's not worth him giving you points for low points. Low points for a general are generally (lol) higher than than 50 points.

Note I said precieved though. Preception is always reality, until reality bites someone in the arse. If you can get someone to believe you are intrigal to the game they will always be far more likely to give you trust. This perception must always be fostered throughout the game, whether your helping someone or not.

Perception is something that has to not be over inflated without reason. Just as no one will believe your he key to the game no one will continously fall for dramatic over inflation. It must be mixed with truth. It must also be used very sparingly. Over using it quickly gets you boned.

Aside from the preception of what his needs are is what the general precieves your needs as being. If he truly believes you need to work with him thoughout the game, and are not willing to obliterate that trust, he'll work with you. He'll feel safe, you want that, regardless of your intentions.

So let him know when the other team trys to bribe you to blow up his base, even if your biased to the other team, and that you wouldn't do it because you'd be done. At the recent stratagey plus game for example, where I was a nuetral roleplayer, one team tried to pay me off to mess up the other early in the game. I told them no but more importantly told the other general I said no and made him believe it.

It's important to look at what the end product of this was. First the team that tried to hire me now knows I'm not going to dick over one team or the other. They trust me. Secound the target team knows I'm not going to do it to them AND that other roleplayers (who are my competition) may be paid to do so. Double awesome. Now they are more trusting of me and less of others with no lies, backstabbing, or otherwise trust removing moves being made. Too boot I don't have to worry about the team that tried to hire me getting pissed because the secound won't tell them. They're enemies and all.

Now I have acess to both bases to use as desired. That's key for a nuetral roleplayer. It's YOUR needs that are paramount, not your friends or teams, yours. While you may not get a shiny award at the end of the game you can play it and make an impact.

neutral roleplayers

neutral roleplayers, like a 3rd entity, are generally the ones that need trust the most (other than spys) trust from both teams. They face the largest challenge out of all the types as they may be for someone one minute and against them the next. If you get a nuetral role remember this and actually play the role. So many take neutral roleplaying positions to help out their friends/team and this severly impacts not only the game but your ability to roleplay. Over time people will stop trusting you completely and you'll be done.

To get trust there are diffrent methods for a nuetral roleplayer that all relate to what a team wants. Using rewards is really the only way to build trust when your a known neutral roleplayer. Often times you don't have the time to go through time consuming tasks. If you can, and the reward is worth it, than it might be a good idea. Like if a general demands you don't come in his base with a gun, why bother trying?

The one thing you can almost never give a team is field controll, that is something you can only give if you have some sort of special power. There are other things you can't give but they varry. Generally what you can give a team, in order to win, is points, props, hurt brought to the other team, intel, and in rare cases you being on some mission.

Deciding what to give to whom is less important than making sure no one realizes what you can give out. Make sure no one knows what this is. If your not using a prop hide it somewhere or if rules allow stow it in your bloody car. Carry only enough on you to get the job done and have spare change if you need it. If you say you only have 5 coins, yet are pressed for more, bring out two extra and the recipient will think they're super smart business people. Of course, do this sparingly.

Also giving gifts is good. Going "I gave half my whatever to you or helping out on X" is good to do once and a while. Espicially if you just pulled something for the other team. Of course make sure the gifts given can both be afforded and are truthful if they can be traced.

Finally be straight a majority (not all) of the time with your intentions. Saying "I'm 100% yours" is not a good choice, they know it's bs and so does anyone. Don't say "I'll help with this" if your really going to dick them over. This quickly gets you the boot.





I'll continue this thread latter, it's late.
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Old 01-08-2008, 11:07 AM #112
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I fear the old "Hey, I know who you are... you're the guy that tackled that guy" is going to bite me in the rear end!
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:11 AM #113
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Great thread

10 shot I think it's a great read. I want to play senerio ball for just this kind of deception and real world war play. If I want to go out and get rid of some agression I call my team and we'll play woodsball where these eight people kill those eight people nice and simple so the slow people don't get cunfused.
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Old 01-10-2008, 08:06 AM #114
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/me claps.

I met this "scumbag" at deadwood. Good guy.
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