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Old 12-19-2007, 08:22 PM #1
thatdoolinkid
 
 
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Rams all summed up.....I hope

As to rams, it is debatable which is the best. Here is the conclusion most commonly accepted after months of arguments made on the forums here:

#1 Any ram with a smooth action and QEV's will do the job beautifully at the 15bps capped limit. They will be fine for a bit higher too.

#2 If a ram's price is a major factor, the best ram is the MPP ram.

#3 The ANS Mini ram is "faster" than other rams, but only by .5 milliseconds i.e. you won't cycle faster. This ram does tend to break sooner than others.

#4 The Nexus/Besales ram is about the same performance as the MPP ram, but comes in different colors and is a few grams lighter. It also costs a lot more than the MPP.

#5 The MPP, SMC, and PPS rams are close to, if not the exact, same ram.

#6 High flow hose barbs make a large difference.

#7 Rams not to use include: Extreme Rage, Shocktech, Dye, or Psycho.

#8 and a quote by Mad Marty after his ram study..."So, I have found that rams of a similar diameter, stroke and applied gas pressure, are so fast that it did not matter which one manufacture I used. It came down to the quality, looks, mounting threads, shaft threads..."


Conclusion: the best upgrade for a ram isn't the ram, but QEV's and high flow hose barbs. After that, if one wants absolute maximum performance then an upgrade to an MPP, ANS, or Nexus/Besales ram is the path to go.
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:32 PM #2
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there is alittle more to it...let me find the post and ill link it and summerize there is some differance from the ANS mini to others beyond stated. the nexus/44mag is I belive the smoothest and lowest LPR butnot neccecaraly the best overall
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Old 12-19-2007, 09:37 PM #3
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I know about the link. I made this thread to add to the sticky. The more bit to the ANS ram isn't really much. It will get you .5ms faster cycle time and use a tiny, insignificant amount less air. As also stated above, the Nexus/Besales ram probably outperforms the MPP, but not by much. All this that you mention is covered above. Don't turn this into a ram argument again, this is meant to be a summation of all of the argument.
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Old 12-20-2007, 07:41 PM #4
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Ram speed!?

Like Xadion said, "there is a little more to it..."

First I'd like to say that unless you tested each and every ram on the same gun, with the same regulators, with the same gas pressure, and with the same hoses and fittings, there is no way you could tell one ram's performance over another.

The first thing that affects the ram speed is, the size of the holes in the gas system, i.e. the hoses, fittings, solenoid manifold and the holes in the ram. The idea here is that gas, at a given pressure, going through the smallest hole, can only fill a volume just so fast. There is a really big ugly formula to calculate this. The smallest hole is the gating factor in the speed of gas flow. This is the idea behind the exhaust fittings.

The next thing that affects the speed of a ram is, the ram's piston diameter. the larger diameter means the volume is larger and it takes longer to fill the larger volume. The smaller diameter ram, in general, moves faster than a larger one; on the same given system. The smaller diameter ram uses less gas per stroke than a larger one.

The next thing that affects the speed of a ram is, the friction and load work the ram needs to do to perform its task. The larger the diameter, the more force, at the same given pressure as a smaller diameter ram. The ram may be made of cheap o-rings and have no polished ID surface, and poor lubrication.

So again...unless you test the rams on the same system/gun whatever, there is no way you can make the statement one ram is faster or better than another. It really comes down to this...you want the smallest diameter ram that will move the bolt back and forth without slowing down. The next hing it comes down to is, looks and ease of maintenance.
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Old 12-20-2007, 08:27 PM #5
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but what if I want a stock STO ram with no qevs and no high flow barbs!?
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Old 12-20-2007, 10:22 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatdoolinkid View Post
#2 If a ram's price is a major factor, the best ram is the MPP ram.

#5 The MPP, SMC, and PPS rams are close to, if not the exact, same ram.
The MPP/SMC/Freeflow....You can buy the SMC rams direct from the manufacturer for dimes and nickles. (all the same damn thing) just cause its cheap does not make it the best. Clippard sells some cheap comparable ones as well.

The palmer quicker ram is no where close to or the same as the SMC rams. And are by far the highest quality rams I have ever used (IMO). They have a long cycle life, high quality, very durable.... but are heavier and not always attractive. (neither are the SMCs) The price is high for it also, you pay for quality like Palmers.

MadM basically ripped on some other things so I'm not gonna add to any of the other BS, Here is my overal thoughts:

How do you make any conclusion on what rams (regardless of qevs/highflow barbs) are the best based off of people in the forum? Half of the people here do not have the time or money to invest in a 30 dollar ram yet alone multiples. (cause most are all under 17) Some base their conclusions on hype, others because of looks, and some because thats all they have.

like stated before, unless each one is tested in the same environment, conditions, and marker type you can not classify which one is the best/fastest/smoothest.... you can only compare looks and weight until then.

Ohh btw, your lenght for the excal bolt ram body is 3 1/4 inch. If your thinking what I'am thinking, save yourself the trouble. buy a excal.


Chopper shop.... Roll with whatever you want. I like these palmers, belsales, CCM... some with and without QEVs... I do not care about high flow barbs, the noid barbs are all small M3s
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:38 PM #7
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....thatdoolinkid, I will give you props for trying, but it was a waste of your time... It does not matter what ram is "better" then the others....when it all comes down to it....they all are good enough for 98% of cocker users out there....I have an STO ram with 2 Qevs on my brothers Pro-Stock....it was shooting 18bps...IE paint and all.....that is faster then I can pull and that is faster then the cap on the on ramp setting so where are we really going with this?
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:51 PM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majinebz View Post


Choper (there is no er or 2 Ps) shop.... Roll with whatever you want. I like these palmers, belsales, CCM... some with and without QEVs... I do not care about high flow barbs, the noid barbs are all small M3s
IM jp I only use eclipse rams . my karnis has the wgp Trvs on it though cause for some reason the hoses are to loose at the ends to fit the eclipes qev barbs
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Old 12-20-2007, 11:53 PM #9
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While most all rams might be good enough for 98% of cockers out there... there is a thing or two that can make a difference. One thing that comes to mind is whether it can be rebuilt or not... and how easily it can be done. I think that's a big sale point to most people for the belsales ram.
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Old 12-21-2007, 01:32 AM #10
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I give up! I said the stock ram is most of the time the best. As to comparisons, most of the viable information that I sorted through to make this post was from Vantrepes, Mike, and Kerry, including the .5 ms data on the ANS ram. As to Mad Marty, the small ram is not in fact that much quicker. Let me splain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up. Because force and volume both vary by the surface area of a circle, the speed of a ram stays the same as the diameter increases or descreases at the same pressure. At the same amount of force, the smaller one will be quicker though. Lastly, don't flame me for this, this is a summation of tons of posts and arguements over rams for months on end.

Edit: by the way, I wasn't thinking of making an Excal. I was thinking of other purposes for it.
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Old 12-21-2007, 06:32 AM #11
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I did not want to make it a argument over what ram is better or whatnot- but to me it just seemed that the "summation of tons of posts and arguements over rams for months on end" was indeed overlooked as the actual good information that was to be had from those threads was:

1) current state of availablity as cocker parts are harder and harder to find in your general paintball gun parts store online or in person
2) the technicalcalitys of the mini ram idea vs the large bore idea vs quality in product (ans v .44 v palmers/mpp - as the mpp and I think palmers are nothing more than SMC penumatic rams that have been polished modded etc)
3) general "best" ram for what you are wanting- smooth operation - .44mag speed - ANS mini - durability and long lasting - Palmers and MPP - these are the top performers and yes do only vary slightly from general results from a normal sto or stocker ram- the change is mostly the "feel" of the ram not speed or lpr change

this is not meant to flame anyone, and yes it would be good to have a summation of the ram talks stickied, as well as the LPR talks
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:51 AM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatdoolinkid View Post

#5 The MPP, SMC, and PPS rams are close to, if not the exact, same ram.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xadion View Post
2) the technicalcalitys of the mini ram idea vs the large bore idea vs quality in product (ans v .44 v palmers/mpp - as the mpp and I think palmers are nothing more than SMC penumatic rams that have been polished modded etc)
palmer rams are made in shop by themselves. they only look similar to the ans and mpp rams due to being made of stainless.

MPP rams are made by SMC on a special order, so an SMC ram isn't exactly the same as a MPP ram though their made by the same manufacturer.

ANS rams are made by clippard.

eclipse/evo/belsales ram as we all know are made by belsales.
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Old 12-21-2007, 10:55 AM #13
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omg let it die....
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Old 12-21-2007, 11:18 AM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadoflame View Post
palmer rams are made in shop by themselves. they only look similar to the ans and mpp rams due to being made of stainless.

MPP rams are made by SMC on a special order, so an SMC ram isn't exactly the same as a MPP ram though their made by the same manufacturer.

ANS rams are made by clippard.

eclipse/evo/belsales ram as we all know are made by belsales.
Very good info :-)

For awhile back in 2k1 ish there where about 3-4 versions of a SMC based ram and 2 or so clippard rams...you can find some old old clippards infact

I mean it makes sence seeing that the first rams used where for penu machines and stuff not pb
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:07 PM #15
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Ram speed!?

Hey guys,

I am not flaming or criticizing anyone; please don't take it this way. I am only trying to state some facts about rams and their speed.

Years ago, I studied rams for a project I was working on. I called all the manufactures of pneumatics, asked questions and one even sent me several spreadsheets they use to engineer rams. Calculating the speed of a ram is not an easy thing to do. They sent me four spread sheets, all of which were needed to calculate the estimated cycle time of a ram at a given diameter and gas pressure.

The force of a ram is easy, itís just PSI*diameter=force. The speed of a ram is almost inversely proportional to its diameter.....

So, I have found that rams of a similar diameter, stroke and applied gas pressure, are so fast that it did not matter which one manufacture I used. It came down to the quality, looks, mounting threads, shaft threads...

Don't be caught up in the hype about speed; a milli-second here or there will never be noticed. Its all about the looks and quality...and availability.
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:27 PM #16
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Ok, lets flip this..
RAMS NOT TO USE!!
-Extreme rage
-shocktech
heard nothing good about the dye or psycho rams either..

that should start you off in the right direction.
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:39 PM #17
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Edit: by the way, I wasn't thinking of making an Excal. I was thinking of other purposes for it.
Yeah, and thats why I was saying save some trouble, buy an excal!
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Old 12-21-2007, 01:24 PM #18
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I edited in your stuff on not to use, kmac, and that last quote by you, Mad Marty.

As another note, I do wish I could have an 04 Excalibur, but I don't have near that kind of cash. I can't even find a used 04 Excalibur for sale. AKA sells them new for $900, but uhhh.....I'm a college student. I live off of mac and cheese (and not the name brand kind either).
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Old 07-23-2008, 09:54 AM #19
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yeah ok, i'd like to know how to fix the leak on the base of the ram... there's an o-ring in there i think and i just can't open the mp4 ram to get access to that part..
if anyone knows how, please help me.
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Old 07-23-2008, 10:23 AM #20
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yeah ok, i'd like to know how to fix the leak on the base of the ram... there's an o-ring in there i think and i just can't open the mp4 ram to get access to that part..
if anyone knows how, please help me.
from what i have read some r press fitted and will not unscrew.
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Old 07-23-2008, 01:40 PM #21
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I would imagine (key word here is imagine) that the MP4 would be similar to the STO ram in that it is simply mad loctited. You will need to bring some heat to it to break the loctite, and then unscrew it. But don't take my word for it. It may help to contact WGP (if you can get to them..) for this information.
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