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Old 12-13-2007, 02:36 PM #64
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Step #2. I like you already.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:10 PM #65
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Okay, so we've got a petition going... but we really need to come up with what the striking points are. I'll at least start it off, but I'd like for other opinions as to what needed.

1) We want a unified format. One that has a scoring system that is easily understood from casual observers to long-time players. This format should be built in a way to limit the effect of bad calls, missed calls, flukes, luck, etc. The format should be exciting but games should be long enough to be suspenseful... if a game is too fast, its hard for people to adopt viewing it.

2) We want a Sanctioning Body for the Sport. They would provide assistance and structure to all levels of our sport. Guidance, training, literature, and grading system for fields & stores. Rules,Safety Notices & enforcement for manufacturers, leagues, stores, and fields. Public Relations, Promotion, and Public Image for our sport should also be a goal of the sport. Accreditation body for regional, local, national and international events. Accreditation school for refereeing with frequent courses at regional locations.

3) Goal of this organization would be to promote the sport of paintball to everyone. Gain Olympic status for the sport and further legitimize paintball as a sport rather than a hobby or other segmented sport.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:28 PM #66
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This whole conversation has taken a turn towards the absurd. Online petitions, much less anonymous ones with no true goals, are just silly. How many of you complaining have talked to Shawn (or better yet - Bruce) about the problems you see with the league?

Shawn acted genuinely surprised when I told him at the final event that 2007 was the worst year for the NPPL since the split. More people need to up front and honest with the league if you expect change. Hiding behind a keyboard or another user name won't help. It will just get your whole argument dismissed. We have real issues if this league is going to survive. Let's work together and get some of them addressed before 2008 is even worse and the league fails.

The obvious issues I've seen are:
  • Reffing - inconsistent at best. PSP spends 3 times on reffing
  • Not listening to input from players - dissolving the rules committee
  • Changing the field layout - creating a last second stalemate field for the final event
  • Not being honest with players and fans
  • Replaying Games - what is this local woodsball in 1995?
  • Field Layout not conforming to rules - bunkers too close to out of bounds
  • Using the wrong bunker - short tent instead of the tall tent Sup Air ships with "NPPL" fields
  • Poor or nonexistent communication with teams of all divisions when it comes to changes during the year.
  • No system in place for listening to players concerns and improving the league.

If you see more issues we need to be talking about, please add them. If you don't understand or agree with some here, I'll do my best to explain why I see those as obvious things that need to be fixed.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:44 PM #67
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It was done anonymously because if not, it would show my personal information which I don't like my personal information shown to the world (as the creator). Second, yes have voiced opinion to shawn twice already and sent emails to others at NPPL and got blown off. Shows some respect he has for the players. Who even has a contact for Bruce? Do you? I look for anyone to contact at Pacific Paintball and I keep coming back to Shawn.

The petition is made to see how many out there truely want something done. Yes, we have goals, but right now we need to see if we will be heard. Plus, there may be more issues at hand than what I want and what the 3 or 4 others here posting want. So making it general leaves it open for more items to be added. Once people start joining and start voicing their opinions is when we can narrow it down to what the true issues at hand are. All those issues you mentioned are correct however, we are speaking for the handfull of people right here. What if there are more issues that are not voiced right here like better food pricing (it doesnt bother me but it bothers others) or lower entry. The goals can be edited. But at least we are making a start at something.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:45 PM #68
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Well of course he acted surprised. He is so full of himself that he thinks he and everything he touches is perfect. How could anyone in their right mind, that has been around paintball as long as him, and more importantly, been involved DIRECTLY with event management and promotions, not know this was the worst year since the split. Only someone blinded by their own ego wouldn't know that. As far as insinuating that things could be fixed if we would stop "crying" here and just try going directly to Shawn, well that is just ridiculous. All year long, people have been complaining, and going so to him directly and in PUBLIC forums such as magazines, and web forums. He doesn't care. That is obvious. Now the one thing I agree with you on, is going to Bruce. Shawn Walker is just a lost cause. His salesman skills are only good for selling ideas, not for listening to and accepting them.
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Old 12-13-2007, 03:47 PM #69
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just play out this year, I doubt the league will be back in 09. -unless shaun steps down.
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:09 PM #70
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I've also emailed Shawn my ideas on fixing the league... he even read my ideas/criticisms on the webcast only to blow them off as an absurb opinion. He lives in a Myopia... he doesn't see the league anywhere near how we see it. Shawn's only interest is to pimp out sport to anyone with 2 dimes rubbing together... he aligned our sport with sponsors that we've tried for years to seperate ourselves from ( Marines - military,war look of paintball... and Hitman, a violent shooter game and movie).

I've tried finding contact info for Pacific Paintball LLC... but their site is just a Gateway for their sub-entities.. NPPL, XPSL, Paintball 2Xtremes, Camp Pendleton Paintball Park, and Extreme Paintball:Beyond the Paint.
http://www.pacificpaintball.com/

I've tried news article searches using the names of the "Investment" companies that purchased Pacific Paintball LLC, Pacific Merchant Capital... never found their website. I did find a "Linked In" profile for Bruce Friedman who is the Owner of Pacific Merchant Capital(Venture Capital & Private Equity industry)
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/1bb/794

Bruce is also the Chairman & CEO of Brite Media Group who makes advertisment coffee cup sleeves and advertisement for the tops of gasoline pumps. http://www.britemg.com/

I guess I'll join linked-in so I can talk to Bruce directly...
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:25 PM #71
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Well one thing that really pissed me off the most is the fact that i played $2000 to play these evetn and i cant even get a god damn player grandstand WTF really after playing that i dont want to play $10 more to get into the grandstands. But the idea of only haveing one league would not be to smart seeing that some people like 7-man some like X-ball. Really the only way i would even play the combined league would to have 7-man x-ball without coaching. Also getting rid of D2 n D3 wouldnt work since thats how these leagues are even staying affloat.(and i know my spelling is **** and since im not in english right now i dont care <('-'<) )
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Old 12-13-2007, 04:34 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brandedpbplayer View Post
yes have voiced opinion to shawn twice already and sent emails to others at NPPL and got blown off. Shows some respect he has for the players.

The goals can be edited. But at least we are making a start at something.
That's good that you at least tried to talk some sense into Shawn. I'm just not sure how many people have. I think if we want to start something, we need to at least start by defining the problems we want fixed. We're all over the map right now. Unified format? How can the NPPL even do that? What would that format even be?


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How could anyone in their right mind, that has been around paintball as long as him, and more importantly, been involved DIRECTLY with event management and promotions, not know this was the worst year since the split.

As far as insinuating that things could be fixed if we would stop "crying" here and just try going directly to Shawn, well that is just ridiculous.
We could start by agreeing here that this was the worst year for the NPPL. Then we can work on what needs to be fixed for next year. Some people in this forum seem to think the NPPL is doing fine. I'm saying more people need to comment directly to the NPPL. If you did already, that's excellent. I don't think we're crying here at all if we're at least making sure we're on the same page about what needs to be changed. Some people were even for changing the field at a time where some teams would get a chance to practice it and others wouldn't. Is that something you or your team was ok with?

You have to remember PGI published that the NPPL was going to fix paintball in one issue this year after Robbo talked to Bruce so it's not like the NPPL has received bad press all year.


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I doubt the league will be back in 09. -unless shaun steps down.
I agree. If things keep going this way, there won't be an '09 NPPL. If that happens themaxx-captain will get his unified league but it will be one without competition because it will be the only national league left.
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:05 PM #73
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Unified format would mean that they adopt a scoring system similar to the NXL. They can keep the 7 man style without coaching.. they could even keep the field size. One of the beauties of that NXL format is that lowers the effect of a missed or bad call and rewards consistent play. Not to mention, the NXL have better reffing staffs because they travel to every event, but they also have a format thats less reliant on perfection from the reffing staff.

Many other sports have a scoring system or "match-up" format similar to the NXL. Baseball has 9 innings and you combine the score at the end. Football and Basketball has 4 quarters with a combined score at the end. Hockey has 3 periods with a combined score at the end. College Basketball has 2 halves with a combined final at the end. The NXL has 2 halves of multiple matches for a point.. with a combined score at the end. The NPPL Prelims are the equivalent of an odd baseball game, where Team A plays a different team for each inning for 8 innings... with a combined total at the end. It's just odd.


While the NPPL point system that makes sense to paintball players, but doesn't make much sense to casual observers... and penalties/calls play a huge part in the games since you only play a team once. However, you can have fluke,luck, bad calls, biases during one match sets... but you don't have such outcomes with multi-point matches.

In the end, both leagues prelims are based on who wins more matches... at least the NXL's system values consistency... and is more tolerant of anomalies on the field.

From the fans perspective, the NXL round robin at the beginning of the event provides a solid hour of pro competition... not 7 minutes that you may or may not miss as a fan, because they are off-schedule or are coming back from a 45 minute field break. One of the major complaints about San Diego has been the field breaks... in that you'd finally get the stands filled only to have them empty during a field break.

Last edited by themaxx-captain : 12-13-2007 at 05:09 PM.
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Old 12-13-2007, 05:42 PM #74
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Just to make it simpler...

The league has shown an inability to address the reffing issue, and Shawn thinks its fixed already... if you caught the webcast. So, what other options are there... I say tweak the format so that reffing mistakes don't factor so heavily in the final score on the field.

I am not saying its all the reffing fault, but its just crazy to think they have to be perfect all the time. Even the well-paid NFL refs have the benefit of instant replay.

A C T U A L L Y, Shawn Walker did say in the webcast that he was contemplating a format change for the NPPL. The more I post, the more I regret not recording the entire raw feed from San Diego.

Last edited by themaxx-captain : 12-13-2007 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 12-13-2007, 07:05 PM #75
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First: of all put at least two refs @ the 50 in opposite ends with a birds eye view, like tennis only better.
Two: use a fricking whistel or a damn bullhorn or a light or something to start the games, it is retarded to have only half a team with a direct vision to the idiot with his hand up.
Three: When calling 1 for 1's; or 2 for 1's or whatever DO NOT PULL the closest player out because refs absolutely SUCK @ this, I dont know what school some of them went to determine the closest object is, lack of depth perception, whatever the rule should be to pull the player furthest back in the field or furthest forward! there should be strict guidelines as to this!
Four: change the damn flag system already, people outside of paintball do not know why there is an idiot running to one side then to the other after everyone is dead.
Five: One event should be in Vegas again, those were always awsome just dont do one in summer time like in 02.
Six: Kill Shawn Walker.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:13 PM #76
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You where going pretty good till you hit 5&6.
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Old 12-13-2007, 08:21 PM #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italianillo View Post
First: of all put at least two refs @ the 50 in opposite ends with a birds eye view, like tennis only better.
Two: use a fricking whistel or a damn bullhorn or a light or something to start the games, it is retarded to have only half a team with a direct vision to the idiot with his hand up.
Three: When calling 1 for 1's; or 2 for 1's or whatever DO NOT PULL the closest player out because refs absolutely SUCK @ this, I dont know what school some of them went to determine the closest object is, lack of depth perception, whatever the rule should be to pull the player furthest back in the field or furthest forward! there should be strict guidelines as to this!
Four: change the damn flag system already, people outside of paintball do not know why there is an idiot running to one side then to the other after everyone is dead.
Five: One event should be in Vegas again, those were always awsome just dont do one in summer time like in 02.
Six: Kill Shawn Walker.
I'm curious with number three, why should refs pull the farthest back or forward?
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Old 12-13-2007, 09:04 PM #78
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I'm curious with number three, why should refs pull the farthest back or forward?
agrreed. dont pull the farthest. ive seen countless times when a ref penalizes a player on the tape, then pulls that tape's corner also. leaving that tape free for the opposing team to move up in. that is the most common way a ref affects the outcome of a game.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:41 PM #79
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Well of course he acted surprised. He is so full of himself that he thinks he and everything he touches is perfect. How could anyone in their right mind, that has been around paintball as long as him, and more importantly, been involved DIRECTLY with event management and promotions, not know this was the worst year since the split. Only someone blinded by their own ego wouldn't know that. As far as insinuating that things could be fixed if we would stop "crying" here and just try going directly to Shawn, well that is just ridiculous. All year long, people have been complaining, and going so to him directly and in PUBLIC forums such as magazines, and web forums. He doesn't care. That is obvious. Now the one thing I agree with you on, is going to Bruce. Shawn Walker is just a lost cause. His salesman skills are only good for selling ideas, not for listening to and accepting them.

Well stated. A person has to be a complete moron to actually believe Shawn Wlaker would be surprised to hear about how low peoples opinions have progressed. If he is indeed surprised he should immediatley be removed as it shows total disconnect to the sport he is promoting.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:07 PM #80
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Let me explain why # 3
I do not understand what criteria some NPPL Referees use to determine which penalty to incurr or which player(s) to pull, from what I have experienced and seen, refs pull players way on the other side of where a player "cheated" the ref will then run pass a couple of players(which are closest) and pull a player that is not by far NOT the closest player possible. I suggest that there has to be change in this, therefore the penalty should not be left to the referees decision as to which player(s) to pull but always for an example a back player and if no back player is left then the furthest player in the back of the field.
if anyone does not understand let me know I will explain via apples and oranges ok.
Also: How many of you watched this weeks FSN "beyond the paint" and heard Telford doing play by play Dynasty vs AA and say " Technicly if you get shot and crawl forward like that it is a 1 for 1, but they didnt get the call". against Schwartz. Maybe the ref missed or maybe the refs use different criterias to ref different teams. That has to be eliminated somehow, I know if that happened to some other team, absolute 3 for 1. And to refs that say If you dont want to lose play better, wow really? really? The refs criteria should not decide games, most of the time they don't, but most everyone here has had a questionable call in a game, So refs, don't want to be called bad refs well... ref better.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:35 PM #81
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Let me explain why # 3
I do not understand what criteria some NPPL Referees use to determine which penalty to incurr or which player(s) to pull, from what I have experienced and seen, refs pull players way on the other side of where a player "cheated" the ref will then run pass a couple of players(which are closest) and pull a player that is not by far NOT the closest player possible. I suggest that there has to be change in this, therefore the penalty should not be left to the referees decision as to which player(s) to pull but always for an example a back player and if no back player is left then the furthest player in the back of the field.
if anyone does not understand let me know I will explain via apples and oranges ok.
Also: How many of you watched this weeks FSN "beyond the paint" and heard Telford doing play by play Dynasty vs AA and say " Technicly if you get shot and crawl forward like that it is a 1 for 1, but they didnt get the call". against Schwartz. Maybe the ref missed or maybe the refs use different criterias to ref different teams. That has to be eliminated somehow, I know if that happened to some other team, absolute 3 for 1. And to refs that say If you dont want to lose play better, wow really? really? The refs criteria should not decide games, most of the time they don't, but most everyone here has had a questionable call in a game, So refs, don't want to be called bad refs well... ref better.
Why though? why the farthest player, doesn't it make more sense to pull the nearest player?

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That has to be eliminated somehow, I know if that happened to some other team, absolute 3 for 1.
What?
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:40 AM #82
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I'm trying to follow what he's saying.. I think he's saying that he wants a mandated rule/policy of exactly who gets pulling when a 1 for 1, 2 for 1, or 3 for 1 is called. He feels that his team was being overly penalized by refs making a penalty call, then selectively eliminating the players in the best positions... to truly have an impact on the outcome of a game.

I think that second sentence was about blatant bias shown to some teams... where Rich Telford was saying that the Dynasty player should have been pulled for "playing on" since eventhough he wasn't shooting, he was actively advancing downfield and continuing to affect play eventhough he's had time to eliminate himself from the match... but since it was Dynasty, the penalty was overlooked.

I could be totally off... that is just what I gathered from him comments.
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Old 12-14-2007, 12:52 AM #83
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I'm trying to follow what he's saying.. I think he's saying that he wants a mandated rule/policy of exactly who gets pulling when a 1 for 1, 2 for 1, or 3 for 1 is called. He feels that his team was being overly penalized by refs making a penalty call, then selectively eliminating the players in the best positions... to truly have an impact on the outcome of a game.

I think that second sentence was about blatant bias shown to some teams... where Rich Telford was saying that the Dynasty player should have been pulled for "playing on" since eventhough he wasn't shooting, he was actively advancing downfield and continuing to affect play eventhough he's had time to eliminate himself from the match... but since it was Dynasty, the penalty was overlooked.

I could be totally off... that is just what I gathered from him comments.
I got most of the first part, I was just curious as to why it should be a back player and/or farthest person away, that doesn't make sense to me.

As for the second part I didn't see the show so I cant say anything, though I don't see what that has to do with the question.
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Old 12-14-2007, 10:42 AM #84
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That's good that you at least tried to talk some sense into Shawn. I'm just not sure how many people have. I think if we want to start something, we need to at least start by defining the problems we want fixed. We're all over the map right now. Unified format? How can the NPPL even do that? What would that format even be?
The NPPL can't do that alone, they would need to merge with the PSP or the NPPL or PSP needs to die out. That being said, I think the simplest compromise to the format issue would be to remove sideline coaching from the pit side. Spectator side can continue to have coaching. This would pretty effectively nullify the effects of coaching (particularly in later rounds of play when there are more spectators), but would still let spectators feel like they are being involved. I don't think ramping changes the game all that much (since most people don't shoot true semi any more anyway). How many players and field size is a relatively minute point. I think sideline coaching and ramping seem to be the two biggest catching points between the two formats.

I didn't quote your whole post but towards the end you seem to think that having just one league is a bad thing. I would be interested to hear your reasoning why. If it's the same argument that competition leads to both leagues needing to be as cheap and still well run as possible, I fundamentally agree with the reasoning, it's a sound argument. But the advantages to having one league FAR outweigh the advantages you gain from competition. There would be more money coming into that one league, which would allow them to improve reffing, legitimize the sport, put more towards promoting the sport. It would also free up considerable money for sponsors. Most importantly you would no longer be splitting the relatively small demographic that tournament paintball players are in half, which means that companies like gatorade, redbull, etc... Would actually have something to gain from taking interest in the league, right now they would only be reaching a part of that demographic, if it was one league, they would be able to reach all of us. Now the argument to that is if there isn't another league they don't have an incentive to do that, but I would assume whoever was running this new one league/one format style would have learned from the past and realize that the best thing anyone can do for the sport, and for their own wallets, is to keep the players happy. I think Lane Wright has realized this, and the PSP is growing as a result.
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