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Old 12-12-2007, 06:02 PM #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themaxx-captain View Post

I thought the NPPL came about to be a players league... seperate from the promoter/indsutry league.... but somehow the "players league" was sold out to an investment firm. I guess I need a history lesson, but how did go from a "players league" to having no control what so ever.
The short answer to "what happened" is ask tom cole.

The wise *** answer to "what happened" is nothing.

The better answer to "what happened" is that the original NPPL died from neglect and a lack of involvement from the players. What started as a company managed by a group of the big name players/teams gradually devolved to being run by the promoters. Some of the promoters were also team owners, Jerry Braun, Rennick miller and dave Youngblood, but first and foremost they were businessmen. As time went on (around the late 90's) fewer and fewer players were stepping up to get involved in running the league. Around 2001 or so things got really bad - poor events, poor locations, really poor reffing. Some players, notably Paul Alders from Strange, tried to improve things with a players advisory committee but they had no real power. Around this time Chuck Hendsch took over the position of NPPL president when Tom Cole stepped down (Chuck was the last officially elected officer of the original NPPL organization). The promoter and the league had a very adversarial relationship up through the split after the 2002 World Cup. Chuck took the league to a new promoter (Pure Promotions) while the promoters took their experience and started their own tournament series.

One of the main reasons the original NPPL fell apart was player apathy. Not enough players wanted to get involved and put themselves out for the sake of paintball, so the financially motivated promoters ended up running things. Which is pretty much where we are now.

(this is from what I remember. it's been a while so my dates and some of the details might be a bit off)

On a side note, everyone who complains about crappy tournaments now doesn't remember how bad things can really be. Anyone who remembers the 2002 Vegas disaster remembers how screwed up things got pre-split.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:06 PM #44
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Thanks Shamu... When the split went down, I was pretty young and my only experience with pro paintball was through the Skyball & Traumahead videos on VHS.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:27 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by themaxx-captain View Post
This is an honest question Jeff, what happened to the Field Layout Commitee, Rules Commitee, etc?? They were all in place when Chuck Hendsch was running the league.

how did go from a "players league" to having no control what so ever.
I don't know what happened to those committees. After KC, we were told that the Rules Committee still existed, but before KC I'd been told that it was no longer needed. Is it possible that the 'new' NPPL forgot that a rules committee existed?

As for the Field Layout Commitee, that does exist. But I don't know if it was consulted about the KC field layout being changed. I've been told it was not. But, I guess I don't really know for sure.

The history... that's a long, long story. The NPPL was formed because the Jim Lively series had gone to crap. It was "player owned" except that the promoters really owned everything. Then the promoters became the PSP and the NPPL, under Chuck split off. And it was "player owned" again, except that Chuck and WDP really owned it.

And then Bruce bought it. And now its not even pretend player owned.

But it never was anyway.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:36 PM #46
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Yea, I asked about the various committees because in the issue of Facefull with the blue paint on the cover, Ryan Greenspan BLASTS the NPPL for not listening to or even utilizing the Rules Committee any longer.

During the webcast, Shawn Walker said that he allowed the Field Design commitee to dissolve/dissapate... he actually invented some word that was a mixture of the two when he said it. That's why I remember it so well. Again, that's what he "CLAIMED" on the Webcast... just like he claimed Joy left the NPPL because Angel/WDP has money problems... not because of event issues.
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Old 12-12-2007, 07:37 PM #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dayofrevolution View Post
I have a couple honest questions for you. These are not sarcastic either by the way.

What exactly is in the works? Can you give us some insight? As far as forming a union goes, how do you think that would help things? I mean typically a union is only a committee in a sense, empowered by labor laws, that is the negotiator for a group of people and their employers. If the pro teams and captains can't get anywhere with the league by themselves, how exactly could a group of people under the title "union" be anymore effective. Basically, the same things would have to happen for a union to work, right? Teams would have to unite, petition, boycott, etc. Or maybe I'm confused as to how a union works.
What is in the works: The pro teams are electing 5 guys to serve as a new Steering Committe. Dunno who's going to be elected (votes are due today). Dunno what power that group'll have. But maybe its a start.

How would a Union help? Organization would help. Organized action. Coordination. Any time you can make ten people stand as one, they are stronger than 10 people standing side-by-side but alone.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:12 AM #48
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I don't want to have people blame Dan Perez for something he didn't do. Logan's wrong about one thing in his opening post:

Quote:
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For the record, it was Dave Zinkham (not Dan Perez) who claimed that "three of the five members of the field design committee voted in favor of changing the field." Of the three he mentioned, at least two later said that they had in fact warned AGAINST changing the field.

The ultimate irony is that they ending up changing what MIGHT have been a stalemate field into what definitely WAS a stalemate field.

Other than that, what Logan said.
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Old 12-13-2007, 10:02 AM #49
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One of the biggest issues with the reffing is retainment. I believe that if the NPPL really wants to change the inconsistent reffing (I say inconsistent, because there are great refs in the NPPL, but that level is not the same all the way through), they need to work on retaining the quality refs. There may be some growing pains with newer refs as they are trained and learn the ropes, myself included, but that HAS to happen. Once they RETAIN the quality refs, even if it takes a few events for some to show as quality, consistent referees, the NPPL will have eliminated one of the largest issues with the league right now.

That's my opinion at least.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:08 AM #50
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So before I say anything, I yes just created this account for purposes that I dont want to speak for my team or my sponsors. This is just from me and I am not going to name my name.

I have dealt with Shawn in the past back from XPSL/Pan Am pre NPPL when he worked for Dan Bonebrake. He was a weasel then and still has not changed. Shawn is a good talker and is quick to talk a game and then push everything onto everyone else. He has to be the center of attenetion. Come on, who else promotes their league by a full page picture of himself? Can you say conceited?

But my point is this - yes Jeff, you under estimate the power of a Pro team. Especially to those D3 (and some D2 teams). If a team sees a team like XSV or Dynasty boycott and strike te NPPL, the lower ranked teams are going to join in. Just like the products, people go out and buy products that Pro sponsored teams support like Dynasty NXe packs. Also, to add, some pro teams have sister teams in the lower ranked divisions, so if a Pro team strikes, so will the lower ranked squads.

Now in regards to the Steering Committee, I have always wondered why committes are made uplike this (this is not the first time this has happened in this sport) and filled with Pro Players. That is not a "True" players committee. A true Committee would include someone from Each of the divisions. Most (not all) pro team players dont even know what the entry cost and how it cost to travel to the events. Most (not all) they know is what time their ticket says to get on the plane, where their hotel is at and what time they need to be at the field. A true committee should have representatives from the D1, D2 and D3 Brackets as well. I am not saying get a committee of 20 people, but you honestly can not get a more accurate feel of the true issues at hand by going by just the pro players. I have been around long enough to know what happened in the pre NPPL Split and I am fully aware of the old "by the players" motto when basically **** did not get done. But times have changed since then. I was around when this happened: http://www.warpig.com/paintball/arti..._meeting.shtml (this is what shamu is talking aboit) Remember when it cost $1750 for a 10-man team? I really feel that since the last time when there was a Committe of players people have changed. Back then there was a different view on the sport than it is now. I think people are fed up and want to make a change.

For those who said that if you dont like it, then play PSP. It is not that simple. PSP does not run 7man, they run Xball. It is a different game. It is not like well I am going to ban going to Walmart, so I am going to Target because they carry the same stuff. The promoters need to know how the players feel. Granted some players want it all for free, but there are plenty of level headed people out there that know the true logistics of the sport and the understanding of business ethics.

Reffing is ALWAYS going to be an issue whether it is a local event or a national event. I have not once seen and event Locall or national that not a single person complained about reffing. BUT being a national event where the pros play, you would think the best cream of the crop should be working. Reffing is a ****ty job and no one wants to do it. I am not saying go back to the days when the players would ref for points but the staff should be the best and have the best training. I have some friends that are NPPL refs and I was told that the training is a joke. But what is the best solution to this issue?

A strike may be a good idea. The only way that the Pro strike would work is if all the pro teams nade a stance. Jeff is right when he says about loosing his spot, but if all the pro teams strike then they are all in the same boat. As for someone saying that they will replace the players; well that would only work if the Sponsors agree and from what I know of the vendors, they are getting fed up with the NPPL events too. They get raped on vending and dont get much of a return. The small guys do it for the exposure. But even the current vendors can tell you that it is not worth it, but they do it because there is no other outlet. The NPPL has them by the balls, if the vendors and the teams they sponsor unite, it could work. Maybe this is the time for people to stop taking it and do something about it - but talking on a forum is just the first step, the next step is to stand up and scream.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:16 AM #51
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wa wa wa, quit playing, or focus less on the politics and have some damn fun again.

"All this NPPL sucks, PSP better" crap is getting old...
seriously
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:26 AM #52
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Branded, great post. If there is a strike, what is the ultimate goal... that would have to be laid out well in advance.

In my perfect world, the strike would end with there being 1 American pro league for the purpose of promoting the sport, 1 accepted format, a players association, a sanctioned reffing school/program, and a non-partisan governing body of paintball that also provides literature to promote the sport, support local shops, etc, it would be similar to FIFA's role in soccer... in addition to fixing the issues in the US, having those items would put us on track to being an Olympic Sport and adding that next level of credibility to being a sport, not a hobby.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:35 AM #53
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Thank you Maxx. I agree with you. I think the purpose of the strike should be all the issues at hand: reffing, cost, rules abided by, and more.

Honestly, I always felt that the D2 and D3 divisions should not be played in the NPPL and PSP. Maybe I am old school, but I always felt that the purpose of a Professional league is to showcase the professionals. Look at all the major sports: Baseball, Basketball, Football, hockey. You see the pros. Now granted that is why they tape the pros for the TV but I think that they strech theirselves thin by running all the divisions. Keep it simple. Let the local leagues handle the D2 and D3 divisions. I think that was the point of the feeder series but you see where that ended up. For 3 years I heard about feeder series and I see nothing happneing according to how they were planning the purpose of the feeder series.
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:41 AM #54
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Now in regards to the Steering Committee, I have always wondered why committes are made uplike this (this is not the first time this has happened in this sport) and filled with Pro Players. That is not a "True" players committee. A true Committee would include someone from Each of the divisions. ... A true committee should have representatives from the D1, D2 and D3 Brackets as well. I am not saying get a committee of 20 people, but you honestly can not get a more accurate feel of the true issues at hand by going by just the pro players.
Uh, the last Steering Committee, the only other one in the history of the PSP/NPPL that I am aware of, had representatives from every division. I was there as one of the Novice representatitves.

This is, in fact, the first time the Pro's have been actively organized, by the league, to form an "outside" adjudication system (if that is what this becomes. That remains to be seen.).
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Old 12-13-2007, 11:54 AM #55
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hate to burst your guys bubble but if you noticed at the event the whole sport is dying like a leaf, w/o the support of all the divisions i doubt you will effect any major changes,but i agree with everything your saying,, and before the event i didnt notice tons of stales on the nppl field and we had it up for 3 weeks,then todd threw the new layout on fri didnt mention if it was better or worse
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:02 PM #56
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What is in the works: The pro teams are electing 5 guys to serve as a new Steering Committe. Dunno who's going to be elected (votes are due today). Dunno what power that group'll have. But maybe its a start.

How would a Union help? Organization would help. Organized action. Coordination. Any time you can make ten people stand as one, they are stronger than 10 people standing side-by-side but alone.
Thanks "J.Stein". Can you let us know who was elected and how they were even nominated? Not to sound unappreciative that something has been done, but why were only the pros told about this when it effects the entire league? I for one, personally know a lot of lower division team captains/owners who have been around paintball for a long time and who are also business owners and business savvy men, that could contribute just as much to such a committee. It just seems like the small steps taken lately have been directed towards the pros and the pro teams only. The reffing "revamping" was only for the pro fields. They only used those new flags on the pro fields. (not like those handsomely sculpted works of art would have set the league back more than $20 for all the fields). The "town meeting", from what I was told, was only for pros and industry people. I could be wrong about that, but I didn't hear about it until it was brought up in a forum a day or two before SD. This recent "steering committee" vote was for the pros only. I mean, I can understand having the TV show be about the pros, but the league is for all of us. Sorry, not trying to hate on the pros, but rather trying to understand why the lower divisions (the bulk of the league) are being ignored. Why couldn't each division vote one of its own to represent them.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:10 PM #57
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Thanks "J.Stein". Can you let us know who was elected and how they were even nominated? Not to sound unappreciative that something has been done, but why were only the pros told about this when it effects the entire league? I for one, personally know a lot of lower division team captains/owners who have been around paintball for a long time and who are also business owners and business savvy men, that could contribute just as much to such a committee. It just seems like the small steps taken lately have been directed towards the pros and the pro teams only. The reffing "revamping" was only for the pro fields. They only used those new flags on the pro fields. (not like those handsomely sculpted works of art would have set the league back more than $20 for all the fields). The "town meeting", from what I was told, was only for pros and industry people. I could be wrong about that, but I didn't hear about it until it was brought up in a forum a day or two before SD. This recent "steering committee" vote was for the pros only. I mean, I can understand having the TV show be about the pros, but the league is for all of us. Sorry, not trying to hate on the pros, but rather trying to understand why the lower divisions (the bulk of the league) are being ignored. Why couldn't each division vote one of its own to represent them.
I could not agree with you more on everything. Exactly my point
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:16 PM #58
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I was in the middle of writing my post while you were posting yours. Funny how we had the same question and point. Great post by the way "BrandedPBPlayer". Glad to see more intelligent people are voicing their opinions in the matter.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:20 PM #59
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I wasn't at the meeting, but from what I understand, this was started BY the pro's. At the pro team captain's meeting.

Maybe this is meant only to be a Pro Steering Committee. Maybe it was only the pro's who were organized enough to create one. That makes sense; there are only 18 teams and by and large, we all know each other. Much easier than trying to organize the divisional teams, which are larger in number, smaller in community and far, far more transient.

If you guys are so passionate about it, start doing it. Posting here won't do any good, that's for sure.
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:30 PM #60
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Well, I have to disagree there with you J.Stein. Although ONLY posting here won't do any good, without posting here, we would never know just how strong peoples opinions are, and who all is willing to take a stand. I think this is an excellent place to get things going. Granted, it can not stay here if it's going to work, but it can start here
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Old 12-13-2007, 12:47 PM #61
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ok, point taken. Posting here can be a step, probably is an important step, but it is only ONE step in a process.
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Old 12-13-2007, 01:00 PM #62
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Agreed!!
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Old 12-13-2007, 01:17 PM #63
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