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Old 09-18-2007, 05:28 PM #1
Beaux
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Limited Paint vs. Unlimited Paint

Cockerpunk, I moved the discussion here so other's can jump in easier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
it like this, in racing, they effectively cap horsepower by making you run a restricter plate with a certain sized hole in it. this means that you can strap all manners of turbos, blowers, ducting, anything you possibly can to use that air more effectively, but you only get that amount of air, and thus can only free so much energy from your fuel. so that means you can only get a certain amount of horsepower. this prevents the arms race that just turns a sport into how much money you can sink into your car. it keeps the race based on pit skill, driver skill, car design skills .... not on how big an engine you can get to run.
It's still an arms race, you've just moved the focus of the design.

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Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
now, pump has tired to do that, but the inevitable arms race is still there. firepower still wins games, and so you see when poeple want to win, they pull out all the stops - go with the highest tech thing they can. so while that ramping and vitue boards for the semi guys, thats direct feeds, revvys and AT for pumpers.
Realistically, has pump paintball changed in the last 20 years? What are the advancements? High Pressure? Agitated hoppers (which most of us don't use)? Not much has changed since 1990.

Limited paint isn't "Old School"... Limited paint is an arbitrary rule put in place to attract a niche market. I, personally, am not that attracted to join that market. Do I run Halo and 5 140 round tubes a game? No, I run a sport shot and a joy ride harness (lately getting ready for the NSA) but generally, I carry shorty 40rd pods and RARELY dip into that in a game.

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Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
but the point of capping paint makes all those factors uniportant. if each player only got ten paintballs per game, him having a timmy means nothing. its a way to cap techonogy without having to make 10000 rules about every single new thing that comes out.
Well, you're talking about a specific form of paintball that you're saying everyone should play. Using your racing analogy... it's like you being a rally car driver going out and saying everyone has to drive rally style... even the dragster drivers (timmy owners). Their cars are simply not designed to turn... How does that common course seem fair? The drivers may be identical skill wise but you'd be limiting one unfairly because of his choice of equipment. Sounds familiar.. eh?

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Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
i want to be judged on my skill. when i go to the feild, i judge other players based on there skill, and i hope they do the same to me. and theres alot of way in this game to cover up for a lack of skill, and one of the biggest is just to shoot more paint. its not the end all to skill, and im not saying shooting alot shows you don;t have skill, thats not my point. but my point is, its much easier to see who is the better player when you know each player started off with the exact same potential to win technologically.
It's been my experience that guys without skill still get shot first by the guys with skill. Does the kids without skill but with the firepower reduce your skill?
No. Does it make the game harder? Yes. But hey, if we wanted to take the easy route, we'd shoot Egos.

Ultimately, It's do what you like. If you enjoy limited paint... go for it! If you don't, then don't play.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:40 PM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaux View Post
Cockerpunk, I moved the discussion here so other's can jump in easier.



It's still an arms race, you've just moved the focus of the design.

its a race more properly focused on skill, not technology. if there were paint resitctions on all forms of paintball, then no other rules would need to be made regading technology. i mean say in the NPPL, they could allow ramping and all manner of modes, provided they cap the paint. so that when it comes down to the wire, ramping would punish you. on the flip side, an event wher eeach player only gets ten paintballs per game, it doesn't matter word one what kind of gun you have. so the arms race doesn;t drive the sport, the skill of the players does.


Realistically, has pump paintball changed in the last 20 years? What are the advancements? High Pressure? Agitated hoppers (which most of us don't use)? Not much has changed since 1990.

Limited paint isn't "Old School"... Limited paint is an arbitrary rule put in place to attract a niche market. I, personally, am not that attracted to join that market. Do I run Halo and 5 140 round tubes a game? No, I run a sport shot and a joy ride harness (lately getting ready for the NSA) but generally, I carry shorty 40rd pods and RARELY dip into that in a game.

i never claimed limited paint was old school. i think all paintball formats should have paint limits. regardless of the level of technology or player skill



Well, you're talking about a specific form of paintball that you're saying everyone should play. Using your racing analogy... it's like you being a rally car driver going out and saying everyone has to drive rally style... even the dragster drivers (timmy owners). Their cars are simply not designed to turn... How does that common course seem fair? The drivers may be identical skill wise but you'd be limiting one unfairly because of his choice of equipment. Sounds familiar.. eh?

no, thats not it at all. if each legue had there own paint limits, then you would see didffernet tech in each league. each player could take whatever they wanted on the feild, provided that they kept under the paint limit. so you could potentially see all sorts of different setups depending on what each player thought would help him the most. from back players shooting ramping becuase they can one finger to 15, to pumpers playing with 12 grams because they can only shoot 10 times in any one game anyway. it acutally allows each player more freedom in there setups, and more fredom in how they feel they play best.



It's been my experience that guys without skill still get shot first by the guys with skill. Does the kids without skill but with the firepower reduce your skill?
No. Does it make the game harder? Yes. But hey, if we wanted to take the easy route, we'd shoot Egos.

Ultimately, It's do what you like. If you enjoy limited paint... go for it! If you don't, then don't play.
i think your misunderstanding my racing annalogy, i hope this post clears that up.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:41 PM #3
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I agree with Beaux. Limited paint does seem set at some arbitrary number. 100 rounds, 10 rounds, 3 tubes and a hopper. It is just a limited amount seemingly set to cap what most claim to be an unfair advantage. We are often linked to heavy fire - but we shoot under three cases for 6 guys at a 20 game practice. It works out to about 50 rounds per player per game.

I shoot just as fast as I did in 1990 and probably as much paint per game. I think limited paint does not do what it sets out to do.

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Old 09-18-2007, 05:43 PM #4
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Originally Posted by snuggles_smith View Post
Beaux, if you guys use so little paint, then why do you care about limited paint? Why do people say they don't use something, but can't handle having it taken away?
I never said I shoot 30 rounds a game. I'd say I shoot about 120 on average. If I wanted to shoot less, then I'd play a limited paint series. I don't.

LOL. I think you should call it what it is... a stock class tournament. It's designed to give all the advantage back to that particular niche. Yeah, teams go out there and play with pocket hoppers and the like but it's really.

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I think paint limits are an awesome idea. I understand shooting lanes and giving people cover, but it got kinda boring once people decided to use those tatics the entire game, instead of just when a team mate needed it.
I play mostly against semis... so I don't think it's boring. I work on the refining my ability to get across those lanes and busting peoples cover. It isn't boring to me. It's rewarding.

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Everybody is to worried about winning, and you can see it in pump now.
Wah?!?!? We claim it's a sport than we don't emphasize winning? If we don't care about winning, why do we have tournaments? Why do we keeps scores. Hell...even scenario has goals that determine a winner. It's called paintball... not T-Ball.

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The new generation of pump players want the fastest shooting pump gun they can find and shoot almost as much as paint as in semi, which kind of defeats the whole purpose of a pump, which is limited firepower.
1) Do you really think a pump marker can get any faster? Do you really see any new advance? Like I mentioned before we're using technology (other than the regulators) that is nearly 17 years old!

2) Don't assume you know everyone's "whole purpose for playing pump". You get into a slippery slope there. I play pump for my own reasons. You play for your own. Don't assume I should play for yours.

Nice debate.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:44 PM #5
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Ah, a topic near and dear to my heart. I think a limited paint game helps even the field somewhat. That's not only an evening between gun types, but with skill levels to a certain extent. You can put varying skill level players all on one field with a paint cap (a REAL one, not "no more than 800 rounds per player per game"), and have everyone have a good time. The more skilled players will be forced to slow their game down, focusing on the basics of shoot, move, communicate. The newer players can play with the "big boys" without fearing a wall o' paint coming their way nonstop.

What will be interesting as the discussion here moves (at least to me) will be to see how many folks have played a limited paint game at least once. I played a 100-ball 3-man tournament (100 balls per game per player) last year. My son's gun was down, so he got my Timmy. My Cocker had eaten its ram, and my spare Spyder wouldn't chrony below 340. Natch, I defaulted to the SL-68II, and had a great time.

More to follow, I'm sure. Have to wrap things up here at work for now though.
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Old 09-18-2007, 05:44 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talfuchre View Post
I agree. Limited paint does seem set at some arbitrary number. 100 rounds, 10 rounds, 3 tubes and a hopper. It is just a limited amount seemingly set to cap what most claim to be an unfair advantage.

I shoot just as fast as I did in 1990 and probably as much paint per game.

TF
so what if its arbitrary? the point is that there IS a limit, and that limit affects everyone equally.

and let me repeat - this was never about being old school, that was never my point, i never once said that. its not about stock class, its not about people shooting less being better, its about fairness and determining a winner clearly and accuratly.
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Old 09-18-2007, 06:46 PM #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beaux View Post
I think you should call it what it is... a stock class tournament. It's designed to give all the advantage back to that particular niche. Yeah, teams go out there and play with pocket hoppers and the like but it's really.


Woah, hey now... don't jump to conclusions.

This weekend there for 5 of us, out of over 50, using stock class.

And only 1, me, used "pure" stock class, IE-- 12g.



The limit was 30/60 rounds per person, depending on the format.

But once you stepped out of the chrono onto the field, you could divy up the paint anyway you want. I often kept my 15 in my tube, then gave the other 45 to my teammates.
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:11 PM #8
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I think that limiting paint can have a positive or negative effect.

For instance. If everyone only had 15 balls - there is essentially no such thing as laning - thus allowing for movement beyond what is reasonable in any other format.

However, I liked the NSA's comprimise last season for the nationals. You can bring as MUCH paint as you want on the field - you just have to use 10 round tubes to reload with. I did not see ANYONE who sprayed paint winning games (and there were very few sprayers at that tournament).

I am not saying pump should simply be spray and pray - but what I find interesting is that those that are really good at pump rarely worry about what the other guy is shooting or how much paint he has.

We, as pumpers, ALWAYS talk about the skill of player being the point - and not the marker - and now we seem hell bent on regulating the marker. If it is not the marker - then let the player play with the pump they feel most comfortable with.

Do we really think that if we hand a noob a pump with an auto trigger, unlimited paint, and a HALO that we are going to be suddenly disadvantaged?

We also seem to conclude that the guy with the Stock Class marker is some form of purist while the AT using player MUST seek an advantage through spray and pray. I think BOTH players simply use what they are most comfortable with.

I honestly don't get it.


TF
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Old 09-18-2007, 09:15 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talfuchre View Post
I think that limiting paint can have a positive or negative effect.

For instance. If everyone only had 15 balls - there is essentially no such thing as laning - thus allowing for movement beyond what is reasonable in any other format.

However, I liked the NSA's comprimise last season for the nationals. You can bring as MUCH paint as you want on the field - you just have to use 10 round tubes to reload with. I did not see ANYONE who sprayed paint winning games (and there were very few sprayers at that tournament).

I am not saying pump should simply be spray and pray - but what I find interesting is that those that are really good at pump rarely worry about what the other guy is shooting or how much paint he has.

We, as pumpers, ALWAYS talk about the skill of player being the point - and not the marker - and now we seem hell bent on regulating the marker. If it is not the marker - then let the player play with the pump they feel most comfortable with.

Do we really think that if we hand a noob a pump with an auto trigger, unlimited paint, and a HALO that we are going to be suddenly disadvantaged?

We also seem to conclude that the guy with the Stock Class marker is some form of purist while the AT using player MUST seek an advantage through spray and pray. I think BOTH players simply use what they are most comfortable with.

I honestly don't get it.


TF
im not even sure how to counter point this.

its not that its got such a defined arguments, but that it lacks any argumnets ...

i mean, were not talking about giving noobs pumps with AT and pumps without ...

either way, im confused by this post, and im not sure what it has to do with the discussion at hand.

EDIT - you got that edit in fast ... ill see if i can pulla quick one too.

you seem to think this about open and stock class. its not. you the only one talking about open and stock class play. i think all formats should have a paint limit, set it at whatever you want, but a limit encourages the sport of paintball, over the technology of paintball.

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Old 09-18-2007, 09:53 PM #10
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I never said I shoot 30 rounds a game. I'd say I shoot about 120 on average. If I wanted to shoot less, then I'd play a limited paint series. I don't.

LOL. I think you should call it what it is... a stock class tournament. It's designed to give all the advantage back to that particular niche. Yeah, teams go out there and play with pocket hoppers and the like but it's really.
I never said anything about a specific limit, I just said a limit in general to keep the excessive paint throwing in check. I could see someone using a 100-200 rounds in a 5 man pump tournament rather reasonably. Once you start getting over 200 rounds it's getting a little excessive.



I play mostly against semis... so I don't think it's boring. I work on the refining my ability to get across those lanes and busting peoples cover. It isn't boring to me. It's rewarding.
It's definately slowed the movement down in the game overall though. Sure, there's people like us that still like to move and take chances, but the majority of players these days seem to just want to fight it out instead of moving and risking getting shot. The overall challenge of the game goes up a lot when the other players are willing to move as much as you


Wah?!?!? We claim it's a sport than we don't emphasize winning? If we don't care about winning, why do we have tournaments? Why do we keeps scores. Hell...even scenario has goals that determine a winner. It's called paintball... not T-Ball.
Once you place winning above having fun, everything goes downhill from there. These people can be a real pain in the *** for other people to. And paintball just seems to attract these people like fat chicks to a skinny guy. I've seen a lot of people get tied up in the tourney scene, which has the habit of turning it into a job instead of a game.



1) Do you really think a pump marker can get any faster? Do you really see any new advance? Like I mentioned before we're using technology (other than the regulators) that is nearly 17 years old!
The basic designs may be the same, but there's definately been some refinements. Take an S6 or Phantom and compare them to thier 17 year old counterparts, you'll have a hard time telling thier the same gun, especially when you feel how they pump and shoot.


2) Don't assume you know everyone's "whole purpose for playing pump". You get into a slippery slope there. I play pump for my own reasons. You play for your own. Don't assume I should play for yours.
But that's the whole concept of a pump, and it's the only performance differnce between a pump and a high end semi. What else is there to pump then limiting your firepower?


Nice debate.
My whole point is I don't want pump only games to be just like semi games. If everybody in pump only games is going to be laning and pounding bunkers the whole games using 500+ rounds each, then I might as well go play with semis. I think there's supposed to be more of a differnce between the 2 formats then the type of gun you use. That was the whole thing that started the pump revival, limiting your paint and focusing more on your skills. I remember when it first started up, all anybody could talk about was stock class, and AT wasn't even considered a useful feature on guns until CCM came along with thier Sniper AT kits. Now hardly anybody will even attempt SC, and the new guys are starting the firepower race all over again.

And thanks for not taking everything as personal attack and getting offended and coming back with crappy responses, like most people on here seem to do. It's nice to have a friendly debate for once.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:22 PM #11
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well, playing in the OSC, i've come to like the limited paint games. however when we scrimmage, we don't limit ourselves to how much paint we can shoot on the field, that way when we get to the tournies we will be ready to slow down a little. if we get used to people "laning" on us w/ pumps, IMO it helps hone our reflexes. I personally have used a sniper w/ AT, but don't use the AT. i have noticed in the tournies that it seems like most of the guys will shoot 10-15 shots off the break and then you have just that much less paint. as stated b4 in limited paint games you have to slow down a little. However at practices who says you can't just go all out eh?

well, i've ranted on and on, i don't plan on proofing my rant, and now i'm ready for someone to tell me i'm stupid or something like that lol. i'm tired.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:38 PM #12
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Quote:
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Woah, hey now... don't jump to conclusions.

This weekend there for 5 of us, out of over 50, using stock class.

And only 1, me, used "pure" stock class, IE-- 12g.
BrownEyedGirl was shooting a pistol with 12 grams, as were a few others I believe. It wasn't just you.

DA
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:45 PM #13
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What all of you are missing out on is the fact that paint throwing is a part of paintball! Laning, cover fire, etc are basic components that make paintball, well...PAINTBALL. Its like having a football game and saying you cant tackle because not everyone is as strong or as big. I personally dont give a crap what the other guy is shooting or how much paint he has. Our team plays pump vs. semis regularly, its not a huge factor. I dont mind the limited paint because adjusting to it is easy. I am a big guy and the limit actually helps because people cant lane to keep me out of key spots. Is that fair to the fast, small front players? Not really...truth is, limited paint and other non-standard rules make it so that certain teams have an advantage. Standardization is what makes for a fair playing field.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:54 PM #14
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truth is, limited paint and other non-standard rules make it so that certain teams have an advantage. Standardization is what makes for a fair playing field.
what could be more standard than limiting paint? its the ultimate standard. nothing else really matters if you can't shoot more than X paintballs. it doesn;t matter if your shooting a timmy or an SL68 if you only get 30 balls.

but heres the truth of the matter, limited paint will never catch on. why? cuase no one makes any money with llimited paint. paint companies own paintball, bought and paid for. from the pro level down, cutting down on paint shot, means less profits for everyone. all the way to local tournements, every local tournemnt i've played in has been PSP ramping center flag (not Xball). why? cuase you shoot the most paint in that format, and that means more money in that feild owners hands. so hes certainly not gonna limit paint. this is why limited paint isn't a standard more than anything else.

and for the record, i dont mind tossin paint. im the guy who playes stock class and ends up reloading 12 grams twice in a five man game. its to cover up that im not as good a shot as i used to be, like before college.
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Old 09-18-2007, 10:59 PM #15
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BrownEyedGirl was shooting a pistol with 12 grams, as were a few others I believe. It wasn't just you.

DA
True, she used the Pug for a couple of games on saturday, but I believe everyone else who used a horizontal feed had a 3.5 oz... until late Sunday when we just did put-together games.

I used my P68 exclusively, except for 1 game against 3EV where I used my Trracer... then went right back to my P68. I love that thing.
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Old 09-19-2007, 03:19 AM #16
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Interesting posts!

It would be nice to throw more paint. I love doing it with my Marq. I'm sure we all got a vision of how it "should" be. But at the same time I'm happy that Kristen and her crew do what they do.. Imagine if they didn't! I don't want to.. They are helping spread the pump revolution and that is good for all of us who love the pump guns!

In my opinion OSC 3 man is good with the current limited paint rule. 5 man could use more paint. But we will still support it and play in it if it stays the same (please DONT take paint away though). Of course it is easier on us being the events are close to home than for other teams who need to travel to get to an OSC.

Personally I wish there were pump events in Vegas every three or four months.. With multiple div to get more teams interested. / just throwing ideas out there…. 3 man limited paint (no auto-triggers), 5 man unlimited paint (with Auto-triggers), 3 man masters (over 40, unlimited), 3 "man" female, 5 man true stock-class, ... Good excuse to go to Vegas and see your paintball family from all over…

I am glad to see some life in the new forum.

Hope to see you all at OSC Hawaii!!!!
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:33 AM #17
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3 man limited paint (no auto-triggers),
yes but then, what about the guys who have phantoms? now they have to go out and purchase a new gat just to play? i'm not saying i wouldn't go out and buy one( i have a few phantoms and a few snipers), but you have to remember that some guys are lucky enough to barely shove the cash out for the tournies and, if need be, travel expenses.
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:43 AM #18
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flights to vegas are cheap ... 5 man stock class ... the silence would be deafening ...
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Old 09-19-2007, 08:51 AM #19
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Paintball is Paintball.

I don't mind limited paint format like OSC. To be honest, the flag was either hung or I was in the deadbox before I could even shoot my 40-60rds. I had a blast.

I also usually take a Sport Shot hopper and a 50rd pod and use that for 2 games for rec games.

I pay for my paintball hobby. Entry/Air/Paint and when I'm out of paint I'm done for that day. I shoot pump because I really can't afford to play otherwise. Limited paint or a "AT hose fest" really doesn't matter to me.

Jay
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Old 09-19-2007, 09:48 AM #20
Talfuchre
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D3AGL3_PBALLER View Post
What all of you are missing out on is the fact that paint throwing is a part of paintball! Laning, cover fire, etc are basic components that make paintball, well...PAINTBALL. Its like having a football game and saying you cant tackle because not everyone is as strong or as big. I personally dont give a crap what the other guy is shooting or how much paint he has. Our team plays pump vs. semis regularly, its not a huge factor. I dont mind the limited paint because adjusting to it is easy. I am a big guy and the limit actually helps because people cant lane to keep me out of key spots. Is that fair to the fast, small front players? Not really...truth is, limited paint and other non-standard rules make it so that certain teams have an advantage. Standardization is what makes for a fair playing field.
Deagle and JoeSpud has summed up for me what I think.

I think the fact that we all have to PUMP the marker before we shoot IS the standardization is for us. You don't have ramping, forcefeeding hoppers and the like.

I honestly don't get it.

With that said - I still GET the OSC. They are simply trying to do something original. That is cool. But is seems ALL pump tourneys want to limit the paint. If you want to play limited paint - there is a venue for you - the OSC. Not all tournaments need to cater to a crowd that already has an outlet.



TF
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Last edited by Talfuchre : 09-19-2007 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 09-19-2007, 04:44 PM #21
snuggles_smith
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A pump game where everybody is limited to 30 rounds a piece and an unlimited one are played very differntly. Honestly I think the limited paint makes the games more intense, at least for me, every single shot is a big decision. And I like being on a field where everybody has 30 rounds(or whatever amount) and they have to think about every shot they make, it's a differnt playing experience from unlimited paint and laning and all that. I'm willing to mix it up with semis, you have to around here most of the time, but I want limited paint as an available option. I'm not saying it's any better then unlimited paint. Here's my main point that a lot of people seem to miss, an unlimited paint game and a low paint limit game are 2 completely differnt games, 2 completely differnt styles of play. I'm not saying one should replace the other, but I think we should have both. It's like comparing arena football to the NFL, they both have the same basics, but each game is played differntly.

And Deagle, I don't see limited paint giving certain teams an advantage. If the amount of paintballs used is going to put a team at a disadvantage, it's because they use firepower as a crutch.
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