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Old 08-13-2007, 05:56 PM #1
shockrshootr23 (Banned)
 
 
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Kickass skinny matrix idea

Basically, it's a matrix with a tech t bolt and it has a modified(milled for an o-ring gland) tophat and back cap to make the gun much smaller and skinnier. That's it. And yes, I'm really considering doing it. But all I need is some input on whether or not it will work right. Basically, I'm calling out people like Andy For advice or anyone with knowledgable(sp?) input. It's a Blow-forward matrix with a 3-way solenoid, most likely a threaded humphrey. I'll use a quest LPR and an ultralite frame with a scenario dreams universal T-board(good sh**). So, once again, I'm only asking for advice if anyone see's any errors in the drawing. Also, don't give me sh** about "like zomg why would u post that poeple will steal your ideas!!" Really, I don't care because I'm using 2 different company's products, so no one could steal it. And if anyone else on here made it, then cool.

Now for pics to prove I'm not retarded.

it has a dm4 back cap in this first pic and i was too lazy to edit it


revised:

Other ideas:either using a spring, making the bolt blowforward like an ion, or having air routed behind the whole bolt to push it forward.

Last edited by shockrshootr23 : 08-14-2007 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:05 PM #2
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:22 PM #3
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i had that same idea but with an ion

i dont know why they dont make bodies like that for ions nonetheless DM's

its only 2 parts and like 3 orings
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Old 08-13-2007, 06:31 PM #4
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Originally Posted by MonsTER7 View Post
i had that same idea but with an ion

i dont know why they dont make bodies like that for ions nonetheless DM's

its only 2 parts and like 3 orings
exactly what i was thinking. I want to do this so bad, but i need to find someone to machine it. I have a lot of tools, like a lathe, drill press, band saw, ect... but even that can't help me with the custom body. I was thinking of using one like a raw AKA Merlin body found here
, but even thst will still take a looottt of work to get up and running.
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:20 PM #5
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your just planning on cutting off the bottom tube and using the top?
this might help.
http://www.ottersccustoms.com/timmy.html
http://www.freewebs.com/vikesbuildaspimmy/
just thinking out loud.
good luck, i know you can do it man.

just waiting on the ul now.....
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Last edited by Cpt_Carnage : 08-13-2007 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:43 PM #6
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Thanks. And yes i would be cutting off the bottom tube and drilling the top one larger.

Last edited by shockrshootr23 : 08-13-2007 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:54 PM #7
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Looks like a cool idea. Good luck with getting it going... and definately keep us updated with some pics.
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:54 PM #8
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great idea, and you know whats funny, i talked to andy about something thats allmost exactly the same as your desine. lol (he sayed it would work) only prob is finding a good spring
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Old 08-13-2007, 07:59 PM #9
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I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but it sounds to me like you're essentially making a shocker with an LPR.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:01 PM #10
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great idea, and you know whats funny, i talked to andy about something thats allmost exactly the same as your desine. lol (he sayed it would work) only prob is finding a good spring
you dont need a spring. Since im using a tech t bolt it should work fine. I believe the ends of the bolts are hollowed out a bit so the lpr presure is enought o push it back. Idk. But i do know that they work fine on matrix's as it is, so it should be fine using a 3 way solenoid.
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:06 PM #11
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Originally Posted by Mkriegs View Post
I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but it sounds to me like you're essentially making a shocker with an LPR.
its really not like a shocker at all besides the fact that they're both spool valve guns. But, i AM making a matrix that isn't a fatty(or as much as one)
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:08 PM #12
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ok, i found something.. how is the air pressure kepted in the fireingcan, (speaking from shocker knolage)
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Old 08-13-2007, 08:27 PM #13
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ok, i found something.. how is the air pressure kepted in the fireingcan, (speaking from shocker knolage)
with o-rings? I don't think i quite understand where your saying a leak would be(and yes i know what firing cans are lol).
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:08 PM #14
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Ok, first off the volume chamber is way to big. This is one of the reasons why people have issues with the TechT bolt and efficiency.
Do you know how much forward force is on that bolt?! Remember, its PSI (Lbs, per square inch) It looks like that bolt has about 1/4 inch of face value in the can, so lets say we have 150PSI you get 0.25/2*3.14*150=58.875 lbs of forward force within roughly 1millisecond. My point to all this is (And I am not saying it cant be done) you need to figure out some way to slow it down or your going to be shooting more than a paintball. You need roughly 1.3Cubic inches of volume at around 150ish to get a proper acceleration of the paintball.
Hope that helps,
Seth

Ps, as a reference you want between 10 and 15 lbs of forward force.
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:12 PM #15
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Ok, first off the volume chamber is way to big. This is one of the reasons why people have issues with the TechT bolt and efficiency.
Do you know how much forward force is on that bolt?! Remember, its PSI (Lbs, per square inch) It looks like that bolt has about 1/4 inch of face value in the can, so lets say we have 150PSI you get 0.25/2*3.14*150=58.875 lbs of forward force within roughly 1millisecond. My point to all this is (And I am not saying it cant be done) you need to figure out some way to slow it down or your going to be shooting more than a paintball. You need roughly 1.3Cubic inches of volume at around 150ish to get a proper acceleration of the paintball.
Hope that helps,
Seth

Ps, as a reference you want between 10 and 15 lbs of forward force.
you need a big volume of air so you can have a lower hpr pressure. Also, the tech t bolt is hollowed out at the end, so it's force really isnt that big, only enough to push the bolt forward, but not too much to where you need a high lpr pressure to push it back. I'll make an updated drawing of the bolt. Also, The volume of air in the dump chamber is less than a normal matrix with tech t bolt has. so don't tell me its too big. And, the more air you have in the dump chamber doesn't just magically put more force on the bolt. It will still stay at the same psi. Also, since my dump chamber is smaller than that of a normal matrix w/ tech t bolt, it will be more efficient than one since i will need a little bit higher hpr pressure to achieve the right velocity. BTW, the OP of a tech t bolt is 130 psi.

Last edited by shockrshootr23 : 08-13-2007 at 09:21 PM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:26 PM #16
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Originally Posted by shockrshootr23 View Post
you need a big volume of air so you can have a lower hpr pressure. Also, the tech t bolt is hollowed out at the end, so it's force really isnt that big. I'll make an updated drawing. Also, The volume of air in the dump chamber is less than a normal matrix with tech t bolt has. so don;t tell me its too big. Also, the more air you have in the dump chamber doesn't just magically put more force on the bolt. It will still stay at the same psi. Also, since my dump chamber is smaller than that of a normal matrix w/ tech t bolt, it will be more efficient than one since i will need a little bit higher hpr pressure to achieve the right velocity.
Pressure is not equal to volume.
Were does the hollow end go to?
Wtf are you talking about on the more air in the dump chamber? Thats volume you want about 1.3 cubic inches. I am talking about pressure, PSI=Pounds Per Square Inch so how ever much material is exposed to the chamber is going to be pushed in relation to how high the pressure is, regardless of its shape (Its inside a pressurized cylinder.

Another reason that bolt system sucks is because the only way to stop gas bleeding out to atmosphere from the high pressure side is to stick the bolt back in its hole. I would make a custom bolt, something like an Ion bolt basically that cuts off the HP input. This will also allow you to play with the rear section size to get the forward force down to a reasonable level, otherwise you need to come up with "Some" other system for slowing down the bolt.

Last edited by TheIdeaGuy : 08-13-2007 at 09:32 PM.
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:29 PM #17
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updated the pic, but im still not sure on how deep the bolt is hollowed out. But that is the rough idea.
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:36 PM #18
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Originally Posted by TheIdeaGuy View Post
Pressure is not equal to volume.
Were does the hollow end go to?
Wtf are you talking about on the more air in the dump chamber? Thats volume you want about 1.3 cubic inches. I am talking about pressure, PSI=Pounds Per Square Inch so how ever much material is exposed to the chamber is going to be pushed in relation to how high the pressure is, regardless of its shape (Its inside a pressurized cylinder.
What are you trying to prove? the gun has no problems. Your telling me that my dump chamber is way too big. But if it got any smaller, i would need to raise the pressure in the dump chamber so it can shoot the ball at the right velocity. Can you give me any evidence that people have problems with tech t bolts?
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Old 08-13-2007, 09:40 PM #19
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Pressure is not equal to volume.

Another reason that bolt system sucks is because the only way to stop gas bleeding out to atmosphere from the high pressure side is to stick the bolt back in its hole. I would make a custom bolt, something like an Ion bolt basically that cuts off the HP input. This will also allow you to play with the rear section size to get the forward force down to a reasonable level, otherwise you need to come up with "Some" other system for slowing down the bolt.
The only advantage to making something like an ion bolt or a stock matrix bolt is the higher efficiency. This bolt works fine because when the bolt is all the way forward and the pressure in the dump chamber is released the bolt can easily return to it's back position.
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:01 PM #20
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with o-rings? I don't think i quite understand where your saying a leak would be(and yes i know what firing cans are lol).
i ment how will the orings be keped in place.... (ill check the updated pic)
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Old 08-13-2007, 10:07 PM #21
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It has to fight against the continuous flow from the HP port.
Again, Pressure is not equal to volume.
Think of it this way, if you had 100psi in a 10 CI cylinder with a .25 inch outlet would it have the same force as a 100 CI cylinder with 10PSI? Absolutely not, thus volume and pressure are two completely separate equations it a design. You need a certain amount of volume to sustain flow while the pressure is the force to accelerate a ball properly.

I am not trying to dog on your idea, I think its really cool and simple and I like that. What I am trying to do is help you finesse it so it works exceptionally well instead of just being functional.

I believe you said:
"So, once again, I'm only asking for advice if anyone see's any errors in the drawing."
Even if you hollow out the back part (I am assuming your just using a stock TechT bolt) You still have the same amount of forward force and that would make me nervous. The reason as I tried to explain (poorly I might add ) that the face of the hollowed out section is still exposed to the high pressure side.
Think about it, 16grams (I think?) getting hit with 50 lbs of forward force is scary and probably one of the reasons DYE never made a design like that.

Not to mention I think it will be allot more efficient if you cap that HP port...

Last edited by TheIdeaGuy : 08-13-2007 at 10:10 PM.
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