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Old 12-27-2003, 10:45 PM #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
The heavier an object the move downward force and therefore friction between things. So therefore more force is needed to over come the inertia and make the stuff move.
close but dont get inertia and friction between non moving parts mixed up. Friction has nothing to do with the weight, it has to do with surface area and the objects material. Friction is not a factor in the idea behind lowering cocking mass
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Old 12-27-2003, 10:47 PM #44
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But it is an idea behind the over coming the inertia of the parts. I worded what i wanted to say wrong, i know that the friction has nothing to do with the mass per say. Sorry for any confustion.

Pat
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Old 12-27-2003, 10:49 PM #45
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Re: Re: How much does it lower the LPR

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
The LPR pressure is whatever you set it to and it will not budge until you reset it. The LPR does not have any kind of feedback mechanism to dynamically change its output pressure in response to any increase or decrease in the mass of the bolt and back block.
brilliant... the lpr doesnt adjust itself...
just because the lpr wont adjust itself down doesnt mean that you cant decrease its pressure because you have less cocking mass. Statements like this make you look like a tool.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:03 PM #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
Hum. . . . i did the same type of test with my race Millenium as you did with the quarters and all. I got different results. I was able to lower my preasure to lower than what it had previously been able to cycle at. Granted it wasnt as much as i had thought, but i was able to get it lower. Ill go to the shop and use the rock o meter and see what readings i get with an aluminum bolt and a nyltron bolt and swithc out the back blocks from a stock 2k2 to a slik.

Pat
Cool, I'm glad someone did a similar test. How did you simulate the weight? And what was the weight? Mine was 45 grams (rounded off) with the eight quarters. This was used to simulate a weight reduction from upgrades. When you get to the shop, add up the weight differences between the bolts and the back blocks. Iím curious to see what your total weight reduction is.

When I did my test, the LPR pressure could be lowered quite a bit and the gun could STILL cycle. I found this had quite a wide range. But just because the gun cycles does not necessarily mean it's firing normally. What I used to determine the absolute lowest LPR pressure was a point when the gun could normally fire 20 consecutive shots, not merely cycles. This was determined by sound. The sound signature of normal firing and that of insufficient LPR pressure is quite distinctive. I think this is most likely reason why we got different results. You were just going by the gun cycling where I took it a step further.

To summarize my test, a 45 gram reduction in cocking mass did NOT lower the absolute LPR output pressure.

The absolute LPR output pressure was only used to determine an emphatical demarcation point. In actual practice, I don't think anybody set his or her LPR output pressure that close to the edge. I know I have my LPR one full turn above this point.

Last edited by Bimmer323is : 12-27-2003 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:14 PM #47
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i used quarters just like you did, didnt want to change it up so i could see how it came out for me.

Pat

PS i respcect you man, i think your doing good stuff.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:44 PM #48
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
This was determined by sound. The sound signature of normal firing and that of insufficient LPR pressure is quite distinctive.
the lpr DOES NOT affect the sound of a shot, it either cocks the gun or doesnt....

Learn some stuff about the gun before you try to do tests on it.

ps, i dont respect you, i think your a moron, i mean really does using big words and misinterpreting data do anything to help anyone with decisions about halfblocks or lower cocking mass?

Last edited by sethstoddart : 12-27-2003 at 11:47 PM.
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Old 12-27-2003, 11:59 PM #49
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and bimmer Im not trying to put you down... well i am but i dont mean to be mean about it. The test you devised is brilliant and im sure you are a generally smart person but really i just dont think you know enuf about cockers to be posting these tests and information that you do, its for the most part flat out wrong and the information you gathered from the test doesnt pertain to anything because you didnt do the right things to test for what you were acctually looking for.
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Old 12-28-2003, 12:03 AM #50
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and it probably decreases weight more than 45grams. bolt, cocking rod, pump arm, and rear block of course.
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Old 12-28-2003, 12:36 AM #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by MVPaintballer
and it probably decreases weight more than 45grams. bolt, cocking rod, pump arm, and rear block of course.
Bob Long said the combined weight of his bolt, backblock, pullpin and pump arm is about 38g. I'm sure Martins parts are very close. The average weight of a 2k backblock alone is about 40g.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
The sound signature of normal firing and that of insufficient LPR pressure is quite distinctive. I think this is most likely reason why we got different results. You were just going by the gun cycling where I took it a step further.
The gun cycling is still firing, it just doesn't leave enough time to load a ball. You'll hear all the same sounds you normally would, only faster.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
The absolute LPR output pressure was only used to determine an emphatical demarcation point. In actual practice, I don't think anybody set his or her LPR output pressure that close to the edge. I know I have my LPR one full turn above this point.
I get mine to cock, then 1/4 turn more, if I need it, just like many other people. Never had a problem with it either.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
your quarter test sounds like you had the right idea but you ****ed up when you tested for the lowest point before it misfired under the higher weight of the quarters. What you should have been looking for with that experiment was the lowest posible (consistent) cocking pressure of your setup with added weight. Then you should have removed the weight and tested again for the lowest possible pressure of cocking with the lightened setup. Use the rockometer you have and give us pressures to compair between the lightened cocking mass and the heavy cocking mass. You had the right idea with the test but apparently (from what i got out of that post) you tried to see if your setup would work with less cocking mass at a the pressure it would misfire at with the heavy cocking mass. Look for specific minimums for each and then show us NUMBERS.
I agree. The test was a good idea, just not executed right.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
Also i believe the idea behind less chops is momentum of the reciprocating mass, not so much the acctual lpr pressure.
Actually, it's force, which deals with the diameter of the ram and the pressure to it.
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Old 12-28-2003, 12:07 PM #52
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I redid this test, only this time i did it in reverse. I took the gun and set it to the lowest preasure i could get. It would shoot 20 +shots in a row recoking itself evertime. I did the LPR very finely and did not turn it up an extra 1/4 turn like i normaly would. So i had it set at the lowest preasure to cycle repeatedly.

Then i added the quarters and tryed to cycle to see if it would work. It fired the first several shots but then had problems recocking there after, i would get a shot or two and then need to cock it. I had to turn it up to get it to cycle continiously.

Pat
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Old 12-28-2003, 09:55 PM #53
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Originally posted by Bimmer323is
GUFFAW! Dude, you crack me up. I have a few more big words for you: Learn to read for comprehension. Exercise critical thinking.
seriously, it either cocks the gun or it doesnt, it DOESNT CHANGE THE SOUND OF THE GUN FIRING, the lpr either has enuf pressure to bring the hammer to the cocking point or it doesnt and it doesnt fire.... but maybe thats the sound differance your talking about, a shot or no shot. . one more time you use big words to cover the fact that your a damn moron. go back to an impulse where an lpr would change the sound of things and stop trying to post about cockers...
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Old 12-28-2003, 09:58 PM #54
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And slush im starting to like you more and more cuz you did the test right, and acctually proved that a higher output pressure from you lpr is requred to cycle a heavier cocking mass. Thankyou for using real data and testing properly! good test and perfect, clean consise results. Thats the kind of info and tests that need to be done and posted more often!!
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Old 12-28-2003, 10:10 PM #55
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HAHA i try, i try. No, i thought it was weird that Bimmer didnt get results we all thought we should be getting so i thouhgt it would be easy enough to turn the idea around. So i did and it worked like i thought it would. Bimmer, your still cool and i respect ya no matter what everyone else thinks.

Pat

PS my shop sent the rockometer off somewhere for some reason and dont know where it is. I am gona try some other local places to get some exact number on PSI if i can. Ill keep yall up on the info, and sorry i couldnt get it today.
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Old 12-29-2003, 01:35 AM #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
Halfblock conversions, while they do look like ***, acctually dramatically improve preformace in the way of lower cocking mass
Dramatically improves performance? Dramatic is a relative term. Dramatic compared to WHAT? A Halo B dramatically improves ball-loading performance compared to a gravity fed hopper. The E-blade dramatically improves ROF performance compared to the slide trigger. These are tangible and indisputable. Your claims, as usual, are unsupported and you have not done anything to convince anyone.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
and if you dont know what that does for a cocker then you shouldnt be trying to argue with more knowledgeable people
More knowledgeable people? Are you implying thatís YOU? !!BIG LAUGH!! Dude, donít even go there! I just spent the last few minutes reading the last 30 or so of your posts. NOTHING in any of your drivel even remotely hint at any kind of expert knowledge in any area whatsoever. Not one bit of original thought. You seem to be a blind believer in every piece advertisement, thatís pretty clear.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
Do some reading.
Apparently, reading is ALL you do.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
your quarter test sounds like you had the right idea but you ****ed up when you tested for the lowest point before it misfired under the higher weight of the quarters. What you should have been looking for with that experiment was the lowest posible (consistent) cocking pressure of your setup with added weight.
You didnít read carefully. This was my 1st step:
ďOnce the quarters are secured to my back block, I aired up the gun and lowered my LPR (Palmer MicroRock) output pressure way down. Then I slowly raised it until it starts cocking. Then I fine-tuned to get the absolute minimum LPR output pressure that allows me to fire 20 consecutive shots where it fires normally. I used a Sharpe pen to mark the knob setting.Ē

Absolute minimum LPR output= the lowest posible (consistent) cocking pressure

[quote]Originally posted by sethstoddart
Then you should have removed the weight and tested again for the lowest possible pressure of cocking with the lightened setup.

Again, you didnít read carefully.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
You had the right idea with the test but apparently (from what i got out of that post) you tried to see if your setup would work with less cocking mass at a the pressure it would misfire at with the heavy cocking mass.
Once again, you did not read carefully or perhaps with comprehension. Even worst, you totally missed the most important part of the experiment.

The pressure at which it would misfire with the heavy cocking mass is an extremely important variable in my experiment. This pressure is LOWER than the absolute minimum LPR output, or in your words, the lowest possible (consistent) cocking pressure. Any higher and it be at the absolute minimum LPR output.

READ CAREFULLY: Some people believe that a lowered cocking mass would let you reduce your cocking pressure, IF that is true, then the lightened back block (quarters removed) would have WORKED at the pressure at which it misfired with the heavy cocking mass, but it DID NOT!!!!!! Get it???? I repeated this a number of times and the result was the same!! A reduction of 45 grams in the cocking mass had NO EFFECT on the absolute minimum LPR pressure. That critical pressure point DID NOT change!!! This proved conclusively that any upgrades that reduce your cocking mass by up to 45 grams will NOT change your absolute minimum LPR output pressure. I repeated this statement to drive in the point!!

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
Also i believe the idea behind less chops is momentum of the reciprocating mass, not so much the acctual lpr pressure.
Thatís a wonderful hypothesis, maybe YOU can design a repeatable controlled experiment to prove or disprove your theory.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
the lpr DOES NOT affect the sound of a shot, it either cocks the gun or doesnt....
Are you hearing impaired? Or just someone who has never worked on a LPR? Donít take my word for it, turn your LPR pressure down to a point where it does not fire normally anymore. Notice how the gun cycle sound has changed? On my gun, it sounds like a cross between a cough and a hick-up.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
ps, i dont respect you, i think your a moron, i mean really does using big words and misinterpreting data do anything to help anyone with decisions about halfblocks or lower cocking mass?
Between you and me, I am doing far more to help people understand the relationship between cocking mass and cocking pressure. Iím actually doing experiments and sharing my data and conclusions. You just sitting on your *** and constantly try to slam things you donít understand, how useful is that?

As for respect, based on your miserable ramblings, I have a feeling you donít even respect yourself.

Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
Bob Long said the combined weight of his bolt, backblock, pullpin and pump arm is about 38g. I'm sure Martins parts are very close. The average weight of a 2k backblock alone is about 40g.
You wrote this in reference to the 45grams I used for my experiment. Based on what you just write, I donít think you understand what that weight represents. The 45 grams (weight of 8 quarters) is what I used to represent the weight DIFFERENCE or the weight reduction of upgraded cocking mass parts e.g bolt, backblock, pull pin, pump arm, etc. This is NOT THE COMBINED WEIGHT of anything! The weight difference could be anything; I just picked 45 grams what I think as a best-case scenario.

Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
The average weight of a 2k backblock alone is about 40g.
WHAT??? Any back block of ANY major Autococker weighs nowhere near 40 grams..

Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
The gun cycling is still firing, it just doesn't leave enough time to load a ball. You'll hear all the same sounds you normally would, only faster.
Sheez. Read my response above to Seth about this.

Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
I agree. The test was a good idea, just not executed right.
You didnít even know the meaning behind the 45 grams in my experiment. You probably understood the experiment even less than Seth and youíre saying it isnít executed right??

Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
I redid this test, only this time i did it in reverse. I took the gun and set it to the lowest preasure i could get. It would shoot 20 +shots in a row recoking itself evertime. I did the LPR very finely and did not turn it up an extra 1/4 turn like i normaly would. So i had it set at the lowest preasure to cycle repeatedly.

Then i added the quarters and tryed to cycle to see if it would work. It fired the first several shots but then had problems recocking there after, i would get a shot or two and then need to cock it. I had to turn it up to get it to cycle continiously.
Pat
Slush, I really donít understand why you and I are getting different results. After playing paintball today, I borrowed a friendís Orracle to test my results on a different gun. I used the same testing methodology as I did earlier. I got the same result. The 45 grams on the Orracleís back block did not have any impact on the absolute minimum LPR output pressure. Iím sure it will at some point, but 45 grams was not enough.

I LIKE your version of the test better than mine. Itís even simpler and quicker to run!! You only have to adjust the LPR once. I ran your testing method on my Rhythm and my friendís Orracle and STILL got the same result. After dinner, I called up a friend and walked him through your test and his gun (a custom built cocker) fired normally without and with the eight quarters taped to the back block.

I can only take your word on your testing and result. My tests involving three guns and two people were all consistent. I donít understand why me and my friendís results differ from yours. I can only speculate a variable has been overlooked. Never the less, this was a good exercise and well worth it. Iím very comfortable with my results.

Quote:
Originally posted by sethstoddart
And slush im starting to like you more and more cuz you did the test right, and acctually proved that a higher output pressure from you lpr is requred to cycle a heavier cocking mass. Thankyou for using real data and testing properly! good test and perfect, clean consise results. Thats the kind of info and tests that need to be done and posted more often!!
Even though our results differ, I have far more respect for him than I ever will for you. Because unlike you, he actually added value to this forum. He improved upon my testing method and put in the effort challenge a popular perception. Thatís called leadership. Since you seem to struggle with words longer than a few letters letters, thatís also called BALLS!! You might want to invest in a pair.
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Old 12-29-2003, 02:54 AM #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Dramatically improves performance? Dramatic is a relative term. Dramatic compared to WHAT? A Halo B dramatically improves ball-loading performance compared to a gravity fed hopper. The E-blade dramatically improves ROF performance compared to the slide trigger. These are tangible and indisputable. Your claims, as usual, are unsupported and you have not done anything to convince anyone.
Compared to non-halfblock cockers. That's tangible, just like a Halo vs a gravity hopper and EBlade vs slide.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
The pressure at which it would misfire with the heavy cocking mass is an extremely important variable in my experiment. This pressure is LOWER than the absolute minimum LPR output, or in your words, the lowest possible (consistent) cocking pressure. Any higher and it be at the absolute minimum LPR output.

READ CAREFULLY: Some people believe that a lowered cocking mass would let you reduce your cocking pressure, IF that is true, then the lightened back block (quarters removed) would have WORKED at the pressure at which it misfired with the heavy cocking mass, but it DID NOT!!!!!! Get it???? I repeated this a number of times and the result was the same!! A reduction of 45 grams in the cocking mass had NO EFFECT on the absolute minimum LPR pressure. That critical pressure point DID NOT change!!! This proved conclusively that any upgrades that reduce your cocking mass by up to 45 grams will NOT change your absolute minimum LPR output pressure. I repeated this statement to drive in the point!!
That's where the the whole thing kinda starts to get shaky. I haven't gone back through this post to check (yet), but I know I never said a halfblocking a cocker would allow you to reduce the LPR pressure below the absolute minimum. I did say however, that it would allow it to reduce the pressure. I'm not surprised your experiment failed in the second stage... YOU LOWERED IT BELOW THE MINIMUM! Yes, I know it was below the minimum before the weight was removed, but all that means is that the reduction in weight isn't large enough. For instance, had you strapped a pound to it then done the test, I'm sure it would work how you were trying it.

I for one believe it "failed" because you just say "it doesn't cock anymore... halfblocking won't lower it". You're failing to look at the pressures of each. What is the minimum pressure to cock it with the weight on and with the weight off. All you've shown us is the minimum pressure to cock with the weight on (in theory, no actual numbers). That's it. The second stage was already started at a pressure not high enough to cock the marker. Honestly, although you're reducing a nice chunk off the body of the marker, you're not removing a TON of cocking mass, so overcoming the main spring is still going to be the main factor. If you don't overcome that resistance, it doesn't matter if you have no other cocking mass to deal with at all. THAT is why I believe your experiment is wrong. Stud can post numbers and show "with this much weight, it will take this much pressure to cock the marker", your test cannot do that with and without the weight, his can.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
That?s a wonderful hypothesis, maybe YOU can design a repeatable controlled experiment to prove or disprove your theory.
As I've already said, it's the force of the ram that matters, not the pressure.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Are you hearing impaired? Or just someone who has never worked on a LPR? Don?t take my word for it, turn your LPR pressure down to a point where it does not fire normally anymore. Notice how the gun cycle sound has changed? On my gun, it sounds like a cross between a cough and a hick-up.
The sound will pretty much be the same either way. A cocker that hiccups will sound really much the same... same with shortstroking. You just don't hear the fire.. you just hear it burp from dragging the cocking rod not far enough back to catch. As the backblock moves forward, so does the hammer, which taps the valve causing a burping sound instead of a louder report.


Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
You wrote this in reference to the 45grams I used for my experiment. Based on what you just write, I don?t think you understand what that weight represents. The 45 grams (weight of 8 quarters) is what I used to represent the weight DIFFERENCE or the weight reduction of upgraded cocking mass parts e.g bolt, backblock, pull pin, pump arm, etc. This is NOT THE COMBINED WEIGHT of anything! The weight difference could be anything; I just picked 45 grams what I think as a best-case scenario.

WHAT??? Any back block of ANY major Autococker weighs nowhere near 40 grams..
Actually I do understand what it represents. You've never lost me on that. This is what I was getting at. I had read in a thread on the SLIK Backblock announcement that the new SLIK Backblock weighs in at about 5g. In that thread they say man autococker backblocks weigh about 40g. Since I don't have a scale (yet ... I'm hoping to get one soon) this is the only information I have to go on. If that's incorrect, well, I'm sorry.

Anyway, my point in all this is, you were basing your test on 45g. Now, assuming a 2k backblock *does* weigh 40g (since that's what I was going on), that leaves you with a 5g difference. The problem is, half a bolt and pump arm are going to weigh more than the 5g dfference, so you'd need to do the test with more weight. If you don't understand the significance of where I was going with this, you'll have to re-read my second reply in this post.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Sheez. Read my response above to Seth about this.
Your reply to Seth has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. You were talking to him about not having enough cocking pressure to cock the marker. I was talking about the sound of a properly cycling marker. Two completely different things. Like I said, a cocker that doesn't have enough pressure to cock itself will sound like a burp. A cycle just sounds like you're dryfiring the marker; everything is as it should be, just no paint. Seeing as how firing the marker with out paint (aka: cycling the marker) has no effect on cocking pressure, him firing the marker is fine.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
You didn?t even know the meaning behind the 45 grams in my experiment. You probably understood the experiment even less than Seth and you?re saying it isn?t executed right??
Why is it that you make assumptions like this? I *did* understand the meaning behind the 45g, you didn't understand what I was getting at by the combined weight of all the parts being 38g and a backblock weighing 40g. I understand the experiment as much or more than Seth does.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bimmer323is
Slush, I really don?t understand why you and I are getting different results. After playing paintball today, I borrowed a friend?s Orracle to test my results on a different gun. I used the same testing methodology as I did earlier. I got the same result. The 45 grams on the Orracle?s back block did not have any impact on the absolute minimum LPR output pressure. I?m sure it will at some point, but 45 grams was not enough.
You're right. With the way you're performing the test, 45g isn't enough. Like I said, if you were to add quite a bit more weight, you'd see that the way you're performing your experiment does work, but when you get into smaller changes, it just doesn't.
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Old 12-29-2003, 02:55 AM #58
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Listen, Seth, Iím only going to say this to you once, so better listen up. This will be the last time I will waste my time on you. I have placed you in my ignore list. Your constant attacks against me were mildly amusing to me at first. I was like, who is this fool?But it has gotten really old and now youíre just an insufferable bore, seriously, you are. I'm not here for idiots like you.

It's quite obvious that you have nothing of any value to offer. Something tells me you donít even play paintball. Someone with your lousy attitude tends to get ostracized on the field. At best, your posts are nothing more than regurgitation of advertisement info and of what countless people have written before you while adding absolutely nothing of value whatsoever.

Your only claim to any resemblance of originality is your attempt to act tough with profanity and attacks. The Cocker forum is not the place for such immature behavior. I suggest you try the Super Soaker forum.

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Old 12-29-2003, 11:42 AM #59
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why don't you PM him stuff like that...
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Old 12-29-2003, 12:16 PM #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by SLUHStud
HAHA i try, i try. No, i thought it was weird that Bimmer didnt get results we all thought we should be getting so i thouhgt it would be easy enough to turn the idea around. So i did and it worked like i thought it would. Bimmer, your still cool and i respect ya no matter what everyone else thinks.

Pat

PS my shop sent the rockometer off somewhere for some reason and dont know where it is. I am gona try some other local places to get some exact number on PSI if i can. Ill keep yall up on the info, and sorry i couldnt get it today.
Slush, I have some information that will help explain our experiments. I got together with two of my paintball buddies this morning to work on this problem. I love good teamwork. We used your testing method, the greatly simplified version of my original idea.

Phase I: We all lowered our cocking pressures on our LPR to the absolute lowest pressure where it would consistently cock properly. Consistency was further assured by being able to fire 20 shots in a row at this pressure. One of my friends loaded up his Egg 2 to see of live firing would change anything. The rest of us just dry fired. The live firing was still good, so that made no difference. We even fired our guns at different rates, slow, fast, and ultra fast. Again, the cocking was still good. Everything is normal.

Phase II: We taped eight quarters (45 grams) to our cocking block as I did in my original experiment. This is to increase the cocking mass. The only difference this time was that we put the bolt bin through the tape to help better secure the taped quarters. The three of us fired our guns again, including my friend who used live rounds. As in phase I, we fired our guns at different rates, slow, fast, and ultra fast

Result: NO difference in firing quality between Phase I & II. The added cocking mass DID NOT make the gun misfire in anyway

Conclusion. Changing cocking mass, 45 grams throughout our experiments, has had no affect on the lowest possible cocking pressure where it would consistently cock properly. By now Iíve done this experiment more than enough times to prove conclusively.

We had a few people watching us perform the experiment. They had some excellent questions, not unlike the questions raised in this thread.

1. Why are people able to lower their cocking pressure after installing upgrades that lightened up their cocking mass? The group consensus was that those people probably had their original cocking pressure somewhere way above the point where the gun would consistently cock anyway. So yes, you COULD lower your cocking pressure by some degree, BUT it was STILL above the point where the gun would consistently cycle and cock. That critical point did not change. I bet any of you with adjustable LPR could lower your cocking pressure a bit and everything would still be normal, with or without any expensive upgrades.

2. The most intriguing question was, why did the gun continue to fire normally even after you added the weight without having to increase the cocking pressure? Excellent question. Nobody would dispute that you would need additional incremental energy to move an additional incremental mass. This is one of the laws of physics, one of Newtonís I believe.

After a lot of debate, and some yelling, a consensus was reached. Think about it, when youíre at a grocery store and you carry a hand basket to carry your goods, the basket would get heavier and heavier with each additional item. You would have to expend additional energy with each increasing item in the basket until you reach a point that you have more items in your basket than you can carry. This makes complete sense to everyone.

Now consider this, take that same basket and put it in a shopping cart. Now you can PUSH it with little or no effort. In fact, you can increase your load by quite a bit more and still push the cart around with ease. Sure, you STILL have to increase your energy level with each additional item you place in the cart but now that requirement has been drastically reduced due to the shopping cartís wheel. A little old lady easily pushing a shopping cart overflowing with groceries that would give a body builder a hernia if he tries to lift it.

Ok, back to paintball. Weíre not talking about an additional cocking mass like the weight of a gallon of milk or anything. Weíre only talking about an increase of cocking mass by 45 measly grams, or the weight of eight quarters. Yeah, if you increase the cocking mass by say one kilogram or 2.2 lb, THEN you will most likely have to increase your cocking pressure to cycle properly. But again, weíre only talking about 45 grams here, in my estimation, a bestĖcase scenario in reduction of cocking mass that can be achieved by a bunch of upgrades designed to reduce your cocking mass.

Furthermore, the additional energy required to move additional cocking mass is drastically reduced by the fact that everything on the cocking mass rests on things that are designed to make movement SMOOTH. If weíre talking about a back block, itís resting on the bolt and pump arm, which is connected to the ram. Again, ALL designed to give you SMOOTH movements. Remember the example above comparing the hand basket to the shopping cart? The cocking mass and any increase or decrease is like being carried in a shopping cart. Again, weíre ONLY talking about 45 grams here.

Finally, hereís something else to consider. Weíre not talking about a gentle tug by the ram when the gun cycles. No, weíre talking about an EXPLOSIVE acceleration. Anyone that has ever been punched in the face by a cocking rod or back block knows all this too well. Hereís yet another illustration. Everyone has seen a trick where someone quickly yanks a tablecloth from underneath a table full of dishes and glasses without any of them even moving. Try this would a slow gentle tug and everything ends up on the ground.

This explosive acceleration is necessary for high cycle rate, which translates to high BPS. This force is powered by regulated air coming from the LPR to the 3-way then to the ram. This force MUST overcome the tension of the main spring in order to cock properly. Thatís where most of its energy is going; relatively little is used to overcome the weight of the cocking mass. Thereís some, but insignificant compared to its #1 job, overcoming the main spring tension. Keep this in mind.

In conclusion, I think Iíve conclusively made my point. Those of you with any cognitive ability after reading all this could now see for yourself just how ďdramatic increase in performanceĒ a turtle conversion is based on a reduction in cocking mass. I still would like someone to tell me what that is exactly.

One final point, and I promise this time. A lot of things we read about paintball upgrades sound great. Advertisement phrases like ďdramatically increase performanceĒ or ďyou can lower your cocking pressureĒ are for the most part created to entice you to spend money. They want to convince you to think that you got a great deal. Reading is nice, researching is great, but sometimes you have to go a step further to see for yourself whether they are telling you the truth or just some gimmick or down right false information. Use critical thinking, please!!
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Old 12-29-2003, 12:40 PM #61
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Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
Compared to non-halfblock cockers. That's tangible, just like a Halo vs a gravity hopper and EBlade vs slide.
Wow, that's a pretty bold claim. Are you sure you don't work for Turtle Cockers? lol.

Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
You're right. With the way you're performing the test, 45g isn't enough. Like I said, if you were to add quite a bit more weight, you'd see that the way you're performing your experiment does work, but when you get into smaller changes, it just doesn't.
I arbitrarily picked 45 grams (weight of eight quarters). I admit I donít know the actual weight difference in the cocking mass before and after a Turtle conversion. I wish someone could volunteer this information. Never the less, I think 45 grams is a substantial weight reduction in cocking mass.

Oh yeah, if you add a lot more weight like a pound or two to the cocking mass, THEN I think itís pretty certain you would have to increase your cocking pressure.

Regarding the weight of a cocker back block. Iíd bet anything itís nowhere near 40 grams. My P block on my Rhythm is almost weightless. The back block on my 2002 WGP cocker feels a bit heavier, but not by that much.

Quote:
Originally posted by FallNAngel
why don't you PM him stuff like that... [/b]
He has posted direct messages to me in the open many times in multiple threads. Iím just following his lead on this. Anyways, heís irreverent. LOL.
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Old 12-29-2003, 12:43 PM #62
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Hmm, that doesn't explain why the test worked for Stud, but not for you though.

As far as the ram being an explosive accelleration, that's what makes the difference. Here's another example. Take a broomstick in one hand and jab with it (hold it at the back 2/3's overhand, extend your arm like you're stabbing with it, then retract). It shouldn't be a problem to do this. Now, try strapping a 5lb weight to the end and do it again. It's going to be quite a bit harder, inertia wants to keep it going. Now if it were a gental tug when the ram cycled (signified by you slowly jabbing) it would be quite a bit easier (less kick).

Same thing on a cocker. BECAUSE it's an explosive action, the amount of weight makes a bigger difference. I'm hoping to get a scale that can accurately weigh down to grams. If I can get one, I'll weigh my cocking assembly and see what kind of weight I come up with.

So far, you haven't proved that there isn't a dramatic increase in cocking pressure. You performed the same test someone else did and came up with a different result. That's not conclusively. We're not saying it drops your cocking pressure by 1/2. What we are saying is that it makes a difference. Hell, it may only lower it 5-10psi but that can make the difference between a marker that has a nice amount of kick and one that doesn't. That combined with the fact that it's a smaller cocking mass (in size) and in a different location (on top), can really change the amount of kick the marker has.
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Old 12-29-2003, 03:01 PM #63
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Well the best reason i can come up with for it working on my gun would be that perhaps the adding of 45 grams to mine is more of a % of the total weight than to your gun. I also did this again today with an old rt feed 2k that i found in my closet. . . its great what you find when you clean up your room. . . LOL i found hoppers and pods galore too. Bu anyways the quarters did not haveing any affect on the 2k with rock reg. It worked consistantly with or without the quarters just as Bimmer has said it has for him.

As i was saying maybe its the % of the weight. The 2k has all stock stuff on it so it is heavier than the Millenium FF i was using. The Millenium has a slik block, a nyltron bolt, alum arms, cocking rods ext, so its pretty light weight, one of hte lightest setups i could get for it. Maybe thats why it affects the millenium and not the 2k? Also the 2k does not have QEV's but i dont think that has any relation to this matter, i could be wrong but i doubt it would affect coking preasure.

Pat
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