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Old 04-11-2007, 01:52 PM #1
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Complexity

After watching this video, I would find it hard to believe that any atheistic evolutionist will be unable to question his beliefs. I'm not providing this as evidence against evolution, but I just want to show you guys how complex basic things are.

http://aimediaserver.com/studiodaily...640&height=520

This is the journey of a lymphocyte through an arteriole, finding its antigen, and stopping. The video mainly has to do with cell-adhesion.

Either way, its pretty amazing, and just shows you how complex we really are.

Appreciate God's Creation, or the natural beauty of it all... I really don't care.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:01 PM #2
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awesome post... Im at a loss of words.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:16 PM #3
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Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
This is the journey of a lymphocyte through an arteriole, finding its antigen, and stopping. The video mainly has to do with cell-adhesion.

Either way, its pretty amazing, and just shows you how complex we really are.
I can't watch the video (no sound + slow computer) but I will when i get home.

But just because something is complex doesn't give evidence for God. This complexity is actually made possible because of evolution. The first "life" (most likely RNA molecules) had to adapt to survive. They then slowly evolved into DNA, built cell walls, and ended up becoming the first cells, Prokaryotes. Remember, this took over 100 Million Years to happen. Then, slowly, they became complex and developd complex systems inside of them. The weaker cells died and became "extinct", and the living cells had to compete for survival by adapting and inheriting more complex systems.

I wish I could see the video to make sure I'm on track, I just based this post off of your quote above. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Either way, complexity proves nothing.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:32 PM #4
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"rejecting those signs in iniquity and arrogance in spite of their own certainty about them." (Surat an-Naml: 14)

He created everything and determined it most exactly. (Surat al-Furqan: 2)



Ridiculously good video my friend
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:39 PM #5
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Is that really the process they go through? I mean, obviously it's a very complex matter, but wow.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:43 PM #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldEaglev2 View Post
I can't watch the video (no sound + slow computer) but I will when i get home.

But just because something is complex doesn't give evidence for God. This complexity is actually made possible because of evolution. The first "life" (most likely RNA molecules) had to adapt to survive. They then slowly evolved into DNA, built cell walls, and ended up becoming the first cells, Prokaryotes. Remember, this took over 100 Million Years to happen. Then, slowly, they became complex and developd complex systems inside of them. The weaker cells died and became "extinct", and the living cells had to compete for survival by adapting and inheriting more complex systems.

I wish I could see the video to make sure I'm on track, I just based this post off of your quote above. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Either way, complexity proves nothing.
The problem is is that there are highly complex systems in a cell which would require, as far as we know, proper evolution down to the amino-acid for multiple genes, as well as placing them in the right location. I mean, its definitely hard to look at that Kinesin molecule and say with ease that it evolved.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:47 PM #7
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The kinesin is my favorite part

(The walking thing carrying the giant blob)

Its kinesin transporting a vesicle across the cell on a microtubule.
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Old 04-11-2007, 02:47 PM #8
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The problem is is that there are highly complex systems in a cell which would require, as far as we know, proper evolution down to the amino-acid for multiple genes, as well as placing them in the right location. I mean, its definitely hard to look at that Kinesin molecule and say with ease that it evolved.
And that proper evolution gave way to us. For all we know there are planets out there in the multi/universe that have life but lacked certain specific building blocks.

I would agree it's hard to say with ease that it evolved. But there is no other plausible theory (IMO) besides that of evolution.

EDIT: I would also urge you to skim through this Wikipedia page, especially the part about The beginnings of Life, The First Cell, etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth

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Old 04-11-2007, 03:01 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldEaglev2 View Post
And that proper evolution gave way to us. For all we know there are planets out there in the multi/universe that have life but lacked certain specific building blocks.

I would agree it's hard to say with ease that it evolved. But there is no other plausible theory (IMO) besides that of evolution.

EDIT: I would also urge you to skim through this Wikipedia page, especially the part about The beginnings of Life, The First Cell, etc: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Earth
Here is the paradox.

First RNA strand needs to code for translation proteins.
First RNA strand can't code for replication proteins without the translation proteins.
So even if you get a strand of RNA that can code for these translation proteins, the translation proteins don't exist yet, so you can't get the first translation.
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:05 PM #10
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Here is the paradox.

First RNA strand needs to code for translation proteins.
First RNA strand can't code for replication proteins without the translation proteins.
So even if you get a strand of RNA that can code for these translation proteins, the translation proteins don't exist yet, so you can't get the first translation.
As Jeff Goldbloom once said, "Life will always find a way"

I suck at biology so that's my best rebuttal

But if you need to go to such scientific levels to disprove science while believing in some story without evidence written by one man thousands of years ago, I think you need to rethink your stance (Don't take this as an insult, please, it's not intended to be).
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:06 PM #11
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Please take this with a grain of salt as (being at work) I can't currently watch the video. I simply wanted to adress the issue of complexity and how it relates to evolution.

Put simply, it absolutely seems from an outside perspective that for something to be complex it is difficult for it to not have been "designed" by a single intelligent entity. With a bit of insight though, we see that the principle of evolution and complexity is already demonstrated and harnessed in some other related processes. One particular process is called "genetic programming" or "evolutionary algorithms" depending on who you ask.

The basic premise is that you have snippets of code that mutate randomly and are then assessed against a set of conditions. That condition might be for instance "solve this puzzle in as few moves as possible" (to greatly simplify things... funny thing to do in a discussion about complexity though). So you would have these bits of code that try and solve the puzzle. The code then mutates randomly and is assessed against the original code for trying to solve the puzzle. If it does a better job, the old code is discarded, if it doesn't, the new code is discarded. This process is repeated over and over and over to the point that 100% of the code is computer generated and also that it does a much better job at it's task than the original code did.

Where this ties in with complexity is in the complexity of programs that spring from this. The majority of artificial intelligence in video games is based off this type of algorithm and this process actually was used to program a team of robots to play soccer (wheeled robots) in an international challenge. Last I had heard the team placed 11th in a field of somewhere near 100 teams most of which were remote controlled by humans. There are much more complex examples out there, however I can't recall them in enough detail off the top of my head to list them.

The point anyway is that the paradigm of evolution and natural selection has already been demonstrated in some other fields, and it has also been demonstrated to come up with extremely complex and efficient designs over subsequent generations.

And I look forward to getting chance to see the video, sounds interesting.
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:08 PM #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldEaglev2 View Post
But if you need to go to such scientific levels to disprove science while believing in some story without evidence written by one man thousands of years ago, I think you need to rethink your stance (Don't take this as an insult, please, it's not intended to be).
Its observation. No one is trying to disprove science, but rather correct a model that I view as inaccurate or false.

The Bible was written by MANY men.

However, The Origin of Species was written by one man...
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Old 04-11-2007, 03:50 PM #13
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The Bible was written by MANY men.

However, The Origin of Species was written by one man...
Sorry, I was talking about Genesis, which was written by Moses.

Darwin didn't create Evolution, only natural selection. Evolution had been around long before Origin of the Species.
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Old 04-11-2007, 04:17 PM #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldEaglev2 View Post
Darwin didn't create Evolution
I never said that...

Before Darwin, Evolution was an idea (not a theory) bounded weakly with poor evidence.
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Old 04-11-2007, 04:52 PM #15
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I don't want to debate the whole evolution thing, but I just wanted to say that was a really cool video.
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Old 04-11-2007, 05:05 PM #16
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Originally Posted by GoldEaglev2 View Post
But just because something is complex doesn't give evidence for God.
True, however it certainly doesn't offer counter-evidence.
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Old 04-11-2007, 05:06 PM #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elTwitcho View Post
Please take this with a grain of salt as (being at work) I can't currently watch the video. I simply wanted to adress the issue of complexity and how it relates to evolution.

Put simply, it absolutely seems from an outside perspective that for something to be complex it is difficult for it to not have been "designed" by a single intelligent entity. With a bit of insight though, we see that the principle of evolution and complexity is already demonstrated and harnessed in some other related processes. One particular process is called "genetic programming" or "evolutionary algorithms" depending on who you ask.

The basic premise is that you have snippets of code that mutate randomly and are then assessed against a set of conditions. That condition might be for instance "solve this puzzle in as few moves as possible" (to greatly simplify things... funny thing to do in a discussion about complexity though). So you would have these bits of code that try and solve the puzzle. The code then mutates randomly and is assessed against the original code for trying to solve the puzzle. If it does a better job, the old code is discarded, if it doesn't, the new code is discarded. This process is repeated over and over and over to the point that 100% of the code is computer generated and also that it does a much better job at it's task than the original code did.

Where this ties in with complexity is in the complexity of programs that spring from this. The majority of artificial intelligence in video games is based off this type of algorithm and this process actually was used to program a team of robots to play soccer (wheeled robots) in an international challenge. Last I had heard the team placed 11th in a field of somewhere near 100 teams most of which were remote controlled by humans. There are much more complex examples out there, however I can't recall them in enough detail off the top of my head to list them.

The point anyway is that the paradigm of evolution and natural selection has already been demonstrated in some other fields, and it has also been demonstrated to come up with extremely complex and efficient designs over subsequent generations.

And I look forward to getting chance to see the video, sounds interesting.
But we don't see these genetic algorithms in nature, do we? I mean, surely the algorithm is written by humans, and not discovered in a soup of other algorithms. But maybe I'm missing the point.

The thing is that 2, 3, 8, 20, and even more (I think there are ~48 proteins in prokaryotic ribosomes) genes would have to mutate at the same time.
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Old 04-11-2007, 05:35 PM #18
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But we don't see these genetic algorithms in nature, do we? I mean, surely the algorithm is written by humans, and not discovered in a soup of other algorithms. But maybe I'm missing the point.

(Sorry for any unintelligence) but it could be like how we figured out how to measure the light waves and whatnot. It's just something the human race has come up with to explain, somewhat, of how things work.
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Old 04-11-2007, 05:41 PM #19
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Yeah, its almost as complex as a single omniscient creating everything that exists today. Either side has its own complexities, unanswerable's, and other things. The only reason Christians get around it is because their entity is apparnetly way to awesome for us to understand.

Please like there is any other more potent theory out there.
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Old 04-11-2007, 05:43 PM #20
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Yeah, its almost as complex as a single omniscient creating everything that exists today. Either side has its own complexities, unanswerable's, and other things. The only reason Christians get around it is because their entity is apparnetly way to awesome for us to understand.

Please like there is any other more potent theory out there.
Basically summed it up.
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Old 04-11-2007, 06:31 PM #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MVPaintballer View Post
But we don't see these genetic algorithms in nature, do we? I mean, surely the algorithm is written by humans, and not discovered in a soup of other algorithms. But maybe I'm missing the point.

The thing is that 2, 3, 8, 20, and even more (I think there are ~48 proteins in prokaryotic ribosomes) genes would have to mutate at the same time.
No we don't, but the two processes work the same is the point. Mutations (completely at random) will cause an agent (organism or program) to either do better or worse at achieving it's goal (finding food, solving a puzzle, whatever) and if it does worse those mutations are destroyed (natural selection or simulated natural selection) or if it is better at achieving it's goal, it passes on that mutation. In one process it's hypothesized (evolution) in another it's proven to work
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