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Old 12-20-2006, 07:21 PM #2038
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Why would God allow Satan to operate at all? If there was no temptation, we would all be his children and live life on earth harmoniously. If we lived like that, we would all be going to heaven, too, which is good.

To answer the first point, if there was no temptation, then, yes, there would be no sin. However the problem is that people are not tempted, but that people give into their temptation. "God can't cause or determine that free creatures will only do the right, if he does, then they are not significantly free" -Alvin Plantinga.

In order for there to be good on the earth from a moral standpoint, there would also have to be evil as a necessary condition. I don't know if you are a believer, but Jesus Himself was tempted, but was without sin. The whole point of a free will is the capacity to choose whether or not to follow the moral good or evil. From the viewpoint of Adam and Eve, if they chose to sin/give into temptation, then how could God, if He gives us free will, then not allow them if they chose it?


Don'tcha think its kind of silly to give us free will, and allow us to be tempted, too? Why would he let us destroy ourselves if he loved us? Why would he let other people destroy us, even though we love God?

Again, if we believe that God give us free will, and if we choose to do something else, then why would God then stop us. He did not create robots, but humans with the capacity to choose. I don't think this is silly, but in order for there to be love between two people there has to be the ability to choose. Again, with Alvin Plantinga, "He can't give us freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent us from doing so."

About why others can hurt us but why God does not at times intervene, that is a tougher answer. Unfortunately, when sin first entered into the world, the world became imperfect. The will of humanity at times became stronger than the will of God. And at times, the innocent get hurt. I'll admit, I sometimes struggle with this as well. But I know from friends and others (missionaries, pastors, laypeople, etc.) that God does intervene, and evil is thwarted. I'll need to do some more research about this.


If Satan is gonna lose the war, and the world ends... why does he bother trying to tempt us? Whats the point of having higher numbers than God if he's gonna lose and be condemned to hell for the rest of eternity? It is futile on his part. No matter what happens, he loses. He too would know this, so why doesn't he just give up?

Why did Hitler continue to keep fighting for well over a year when it was clear to any clear-headed person that the war was lost? Madness? Pride? A bit loopy in the head?

What is the relationship between God and Satan? I know he was a fallen angel a long time ago, but when did he fall? And why does he get the souls of those who don't believe?

From what I remember, the Bible is not specific when the fall of Lucifer was. As to why, I think that it can be summed up as "if you are not for us, then you are against us". There is no middle ground here.

I have many more questions, but I'd like to see you tackle these ones. I was born and raised Catholic, and no priest, chaplain, devoutee etc. has been able to answer these questions for me. I'm not a troll, jackass, but I'm looking for answers from a big group of people who have been studying religion longer than me.

Sorry about the troll comment, but it is usually accepted that this is a thread for CK members and those interested in learning about it. If you have a question for debate, it is asked that you either start a thread, or post in one of the many that are in the religion sub-forum.

Dave
I hope I was able to point you in the right direction. I don't have all the answers, and I know that there are others who can offer great input and insight. Again, feel free to PM us with questions, or start a thread.

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Old 12-20-2006, 07:21 PM #2039
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Old 12-20-2006, 07:41 PM #2040
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Hey, thanks alot Rev. Geer. I appreciate the time you put into that, and even learned something.

What I still don't understand is why God created us just to have some rise and the others fall. He knew Adam and Eve would mess things up 'cause he's all-knowing, so what was the point of even creating humanity? Cause he wanted to feel loved? And what sparked him to create the earth anyhow? At what point in his existance did he think, "You know what, I've got some time, I'm gonna create a whole new planet, with millions of species and ****, I know what's gonna happen, but its fun to watch anyways."

With that, I think I've proven that God has a sense of humour. I mean, look at the platypus.

I'll leave your Krew to their work, and maybe I'll make another thread.

Thanks again for the thoroughness.

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Old 12-20-2006, 08:02 PM #2041
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Hey, thanks alot Rev. Geer. I appreciate the time you put into that, and even learned something.

What I still don't understand is why God created us just to have some rise and the others fall. He knew Adam and Eve would mess things up 'cause he's all-knowing, so what was the point of even creating humanity? Cause he wanted to feel loved? And what sparked him to create the earth anyhow? At what point in his existance did he think, "You know what, I've got some time, I'm gonna create a whole new planet, with millions of species and ****, I know what's gonna happen, but its fun to watch anyways."

With that, I think I've proven that God has a sense of humour. I mean, look at the platypus.

I'll leave your Krew to their work, and maybe I'll make another thread.

Thanks again for the thoroughness.

Dave
While the "God knows what will happen" thing is extremely hard to wrap your mind around, I'll try to explain it.

Say I had two children, a boy and a girl. When they boy is five years old, he starts to show an interest in everything... dinosaurs, airplanes, firetrucks. I know he'll be an intelligent child one day, so I set up a college fund for him. A few years later, his little sister is born. Now, I'm 100% sure that she'll never, ever go to college. I'm not saying 100% sure in that I've got a hunch, let's just pretend I foresaw the future with her and realized she wouldn't even go through high school. Would it be fair for me to not set up a college fund for her as well? Just because I know she won't end up going to college doesn't mean I shouldn't set up a fund for her. There's nothing to lose, so why not give them both a fair chance? The concept here is hard... I've been trapped "in the middle" for a while now, being undecided and whatnot. It's extremely confusing, even to some scholars.

About God creating the earth... you're right, He's got a sense of humor. However, with that sense of humor came other characteristics. God had all this vast space and nobody to share it with. He wanted companionship. He wanted someone to be with. He didn't care that He knew what would happen or what we'd end up doing. He essentially wanted to create someone to love, regardless of what they did or didn't do. Everyone wants companionship at one point or another.
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:08 PM #2042
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But dude, we don't hang out with God. He just has something to watch. And when the apocalypse comes, how long will the line be to sit on God's lap and ask him all the questions you've wondered all your life? Arg, sorry, I'll make a thread about it later. I sorta see where you're coming from with the college fund, but since God isn't about being fair (he picks favourites), and we can't see the future, it doesn't really apply. Like, if I COULD see the future, and knew my daughter wasn't going to amount to anything based on her own devices, I wouldn't set up that college fund, cause there's no point. If you KNOW it's a waste of time and money, then why bother spending that time and effort, unless its for some sort of sick entertainment?

If you guys are stumped too, then I guess I have to wait for my day of reckoning. And wouldn't God want to have sex? Part of companionship is sex, be you straight or gay, and sex feels good. Wouldn't he want to experience that part too, despite him being a whole other being?

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Old 12-20-2006, 08:12 PM #2043
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And when the apocalypse comes, how long will the line be to sit on God's lap and ask him all the questions you've wondered all your life?

Dave
If he did exsist do you really believe you could comprehend the answers? Something tells me they wouldnt be one liners.
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:14 PM #2044
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Whats the ****ing point if we're too stupid to understand? He should be smart enough to teach us everything we want to know. Heaven sucks if they don't allow you to think and search out answers.

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Old 12-20-2006, 08:16 PM #2045
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Why does there have to be a point?
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:16 PM #2046
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But dude, we don't hang out with God. He just has something to watch. And when the apocalypse comes, how long will the line be to sit on God's lap and ask him all the questions you've wondered all your life? Arg, sorry, I'll make a thread about it later. I sorta see where you're coming from with the college fund, but since God isn't about being fair (he picks favourites), and we can't see the future, it doesn't really apply. Like, if I COULD see the future, and knew my daughter wasn't going to amount to anything based on her own devices, I wouldn't set up that college fund, cause there's no point. If you KNOW it's a waste of time and money, then why bother spending that time and effort, unless its for some sort of sick entertainment?

Dave
spiritually, we do hang out with God, everytime we pray and everytime we read the bible, we communicate with God and spend time with Him, THAT is why He created us, to have people to give Him the glory, to spend time with Him, and ultimately, to live with Him for eternity.... those who dont spend time with Him and give Him the glory, they get to spend time with satan, and live in hell for eternity... but the main key is He gave us the chance to choose, to except Him or deny Him
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Old 12-20-2006, 08:56 PM #2047
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wow go everybody. im soo surprized about where mastermind is.
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Old 12-20-2006, 09:27 PM #2048
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wow go everybody. im soo surprized about where mastermind is.
where are we going? and i believe Wil said he had something to do with his family.... i think... dont quote me though
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:04 PM #2049
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go as in good job answering questions?
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:07 PM #2050
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Why does there have to be a point?
Our existance has to have a purpose, we can't just be randomly doing our thing for no reason whatsoever. We've come so far as people, There has to be a reason for it. We must be making an impact on something.

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Old 12-20-2006, 10:11 PM #2051
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Our existance has to have a purpose, we can't just be randomly doing our thing for no reason whatsoever. We've come so far as people, There has to be a reason for it. We must be making an impact on something.

Dave
our existence does serve a purpose, see post #2046
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:12 PM #2052
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and im off to bed all, you guys have a great night!
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:19 PM #2053
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Hey, thanks alot Rev. Geer. I appreciate the time you put into that, and even learned something.

What I still don't understand is why God created us just to have some rise and the others fall. He knew Adam and Eve would mess things up 'cause he's all-knowing, so what was the point of even creating humanity? Cause he wanted to feel loved? And what sparked him to create the earth anyhow? At what point in his existance did he think, "You know what, I've got some time, I'm gonna create a whole new planet, with millions of species and ****, I know what's gonna happen, but its fun to watch anyways."

With that, I think I've proven that God has a sense of humour. I mean, look at the platypus.

I'll leave your Krew to their work, and maybe I'll make another thread.

Thanks again for the thoroughness.

Dave
No problem Dave. As to the idea that God created some to rise and some to fall, I think you have the wrong idea here. God created all of us to rise, it is the choice of some to fall. Again, the idea that God gave us the ability to choose what and whom to follow. The idea of creating something to have the potential to fall is that there is the potential to rise, to share in the beauty and magic of His creation.
I think that C.S. Lewis kinda says it best in his book, Mere Christianity. He explains that the higher order a creature is (animal, to man, to angels), the greater the potential for good, but also for evil. Even though He knew that Adam and Eve would mess up, the potenital for love, not slavery, will still win out. Hope again this helps!

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PS And yes, He does have a sense of humor...He created me!
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:29 PM #2054
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Whats the ****ing point if we're too stupid to understand? He should be smart enough to teach us everything we want to know. Heaven sucks if they don't allow you to think and search out answers.

Dave
It's not that we are too stupid, but there are just some things that a finite mind cannot grasp. For example, when you hear the word "eternity", what does it mean? Have you ever tried to grasp the concept of eternity? I think there are just some things that we will never find the complete answer too. But it is the reason that God created us with a brain, and the ability to use it in deciphering everything around us. Is there a limit to our knowledge? Possibly, but I don't see that limit coming anytime soon. I don't think Heaven is going to suck because at that time, things that were hidden will become known, and that we will understand fully. I know this seems kinda esoteric, and again, I don't have all the answers for this one. And again, I will be doing some more reading to help and to also make myself learn as well.

See you in the middle!
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Old 12-20-2006, 10:40 PM #2055
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Our existance has to have a purpose, we can't just be randomly doing our thing for no reason whatsoever. We've come so far as people, There has to be a reason for it. We must be making an impact on something.

Dave

You know, you'd think I'd learn to read all of the posts before replying one at a time...

Our existance as the creation of God serves a couple of purposes: 1)Sharing in the creation that God has made, 2)Interaction via the worship of said deity. What do I mean by worship? Not only paying Him homage and respect, but also developing a relationship and nurturing that relationship as well. And yes, we've come so far as people, but there is still a huge ways to go as well. And yes, ideally, those who call themselves Christians should be making a positive impact on the world around us. Part of that impact is this thread, for instance. To present in a positive light the interaction of paintball and Christianity. Again, I hope this helps, and again, feel free to keep asking questions.

See you in the middle!
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Old 12-20-2006, 11:18 PM #2056
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Old 12-21-2006, 12:12 AM #2057
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I would like to share somthing that I have found since fatty brought this up. You see my Dad (The preacher) says it like this, earth is like probation so with that in mind think like the oposite of minority report ( if you have not seen that movie go and see it) You see God knows what you will do but he will not stop you or we would all go to jugement and not have done anything but he knew we would and I don't think anyone likes getting punished for somthing they did not do yet. And besides we don't know if our mistakes might make someone else see the light and follow God, you see he has all of the plan and we can not see the big picture. All things work together for the glory of God!
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Old 12-21-2006, 02:10 AM #2058
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