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Old 12-19-2006, 04:50 PM #43
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Just a little picky quibble: evolutionary biology, or, theory of evolution. Nobody except the anti-science religious . . . people (had to stop myself from saying something rude there) call it "evolutionism".

And in order to get it out of science class, you'd have to demonstrate a better idea to replace it. Just like "God did it" doesn't quite cut it, "we don't know" also fails to constitute a scientific thoery. If you have a better theory, that genuinely does a better job explaining speciation and such than evolution, then do some research and get it published. If it's as good as you say, it will replace evolution as the dominant theory. Science isn't a popularity contest, you need testible evidence to back up your claims. Evolution has the evidence, and until a legitimate scientific study/experiment says otherwise, it's not going anywhere.

Edit: wow, you guys are quick. And props on mentioning Project Steve.
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:51 PM #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuna View Post

* Project Steve: A statement signed by over 700 scientists, all named Steve (or some derivative like stephen, stephanie, esteban, etc). The point of this was to counter signature lists collected by ID supporters of scientists who support ID. The idea is that science isn't about who can collect the longest list of signatures. Despite that only people named "Steve" can sign the list, limiting it to roughly 1% of the population of the western hemisphere, so far 774 steves have signed it, making it longer than any signature list in support of ID or against basic evolutionary theory.
Bwahahahaha thats so awesome.

I'm really suprised that doesn't get more press. You have any links to it?

edit: http://www.ncseweb.org/article.asp?category=18 for those interested
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:51 PM #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cryptic.paintball View Post
Ding ding ding... For the win.

And keep in mind, the judges who ruled on this are admitted christians.
win for what? is this a decision for all of the United States of America? that's not how I understand it. also:
Quote:
Students will be made aware of gaps/problems in Darwin’s theory and of other theories of evolution including, but not limited to, intelligent design.
Note: Origins of Life is not taught.

and further quoting from the case document...

...and from requiring teachers to refer to a religious, alternative theory known as ID.
(emphasis mine) It is not illegal to teach, it is illegal to be required to teach.

BTW - I am not anti- science, only anti evolution (especially as far as Humans from some other species, and previous from non-living). I also never said that ID was science. I maintain that evolution is a religion (faith-based) - thus my reference to evolutionism.
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:59 PM #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
win for what? is this a decision for all of the United States of America? that's not how I understand it. also:
(emphasis mine) It is not illegal to teach, it is illegal to be required to teach.

BTW - I am not anti- science, only anti evolution (especially as far as Humans from some other species, and previous from non-living). I also never said that ID was science. I maintain that evolution is a religion (faith-based) - thus my reference to evolutionism.
Who do evolutionists worship?

You are making yourself seem very ignorant of the theory you are trying to dispute.
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:01 PM #47
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Originally Posted by cryptic.paintball View Post
Who do evolutionists worship?

You are making yourself seem very ignorant of the theory you are trying to dispute.
why do you assume there must be a preconceived idea of worship and ask what it is? you make yourself seem very ignorant of religions.
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:02 PM #48
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So they're allowed to preach to students as long as they're not required to do so? That's a fine legal line, did the esteemed legal scholars of the DI come up with that one?

And no, technically the Dover case only applies to the jurisdiction of the court that decided the case, but the precedent is what's important. They just settled the Cobb County case in South Carolina because it was sent back down for a trial, and the school board didn't want a repeat of Dover. No, by law, it's only binding in part of PA, but the ruling affects every court in the county.
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:10 PM #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
why do you assume there must be a preconceived idea of worship and ask what it is? you make yourself seem very ignorant of religions.

religion
n

Definition: belief in higher power

Still trying to figure out who you think evolutionists worship. What higher being?
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:36 PM #50
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Originally Posted by cryptic.paintball View Post
religion
n

Definition: belief in higher power

Still trying to figure out who you think evolutionists worship. What higher being?
I don't assume a religion requires a worship. some religions are faith based, some are practice based, some are gnosis based, etc. and sorry, that definition of religion is highly lacking...
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:39 PM #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RamboPreacher View Post
I don't assume a religion requires a worship. some religions are faith based, some are practice based, some are gnosis based, etc. and sorry, that definition of religion is highly lacking...
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Anglo-French religiun, Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
Evolution still does not fit your definition of religion.
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:57 PM #52
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Evolution still does not fit your definition of religion.
well, then I will just have to stop and agree to disagree, for I see evolutionism fitting into at least a couple of those. point of view/perspective/personal context, I suppose.
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:59 PM #53
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well, then I will just have to stop and agree to disagree, for I see evolutionism fitting into at least a couple of those. point of view/perspective/personal context, I suppose.
It doesn't matter what you think. Evolution isn't a religion.

I believe Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. I am not a Columbite.

I believe that evolution is a viable scientific theory. I am not an evolutionist.
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:06 PM #54
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Rambo-I admire you greatly for your attempt to reach these people. You are greatly outnumbered, yet you continue to carry on. to you.

As for me, I am a Christian, and because of this fact, the debate is dead. Because of my faith, I know in my heart what the truth is. I can't explain it, none of us can, but ask any Christian, and they will tell you, God is real, Intelligent Design is what happened and their faith is all the proof they need.
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:10 PM #55
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Rambo-I admire you greatly for your attempt to reach these people. You are greatly outnumbered, yet you continue to carry on. to you.

As for me, I am a Christian, and because of this fact, the debate is dead. Because of my faith, I know in my heart what the truth is. I can't explain it, none of us can, but ask any Christian, and they will tell you, God is real, Intelligent Design is what happened and their faith is all the proof they need.
Ask any atheist and they will tell you, God isn't real, Intelligent design did not happen and their knowledge is all the proof they need.

What's your point?
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:16 PM #56
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Originally Posted by ipoppedtimmy View Post
It doesn't matter what you think. Evolution isn't a religion.

I believe Christopher Columbus sailed the ocean blue in 1492. I am not a Columbite.

I believe that evolution is a viable scientific theory. I am not an evolutionist.
but you miss my point, or at least part of it. I also think and understand that evolution is a scientific theory. I just also think there are too many holes in it that the "evolutionists" want to try to fill with their presentation of so-called "facts".
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:19 PM #57
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...As for me, I am a Christian, and because of this fact, the debate is dead. Because of my faith, I know in my heart what the truth is. I can't explain it, none of us can, but ask any Christian, and they will tell you, God is real, Intelligent Design is what happened and their faith is all the proof they need.
exactly.
I do not want to try to "convert" anyone, necessarily, I am just presenting my opinion. There are so many assumptions and incorrect ideas about religion and Christianity, and I only want to at least try to air what I think is correct,a dn at least in my opinion in regards to Christianity (and other religions).
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:35 PM #58
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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
Rambo-I admire you greatly for your attempt to reach these people. You are greatly outnumbered, yet you continue to carry on. to you.

As for me, I am a Christian, and because of this fact, the debate is dead. Because of my faith, I know in my heart what the truth is. I can't explain it, none of us can, but ask any Christian, and they will tell you, God is real, Intelligent Design is what happened and their faith is all the proof they need.
Just like I know in my heart that there cannot be a God. I've honestly never been so confident about ANYTHING ELSE, and I mean ANYTHING, in my entire life. That is the problem with Christians-you THINK you have it figured it out and you are the only ones who KNOW. Atheists have the same feelings too. The difference? We work as hard as we can to prove our faith correct. You continue with your faith, and agreeing with everything in the bible. Unfortunately, I will never be able to prove you wrong because there is no afterlife.

And hes outnumbered for a reason, you know.
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:49 PM #59
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Yes, I know. He's outnumbered because being a Christian and professing your faith is tough. Why? Because you and other atheists persecute and oppress him for doing so. Don't worry, I'm not criticizing you, nor any other atheist, I'm criticizing the other Christians who are ashamed of their faith. The world today is very un-friendly toward us, and it mocks and demoralizes the Christians who even think about admiting(sp?) their faith, much less promoting it. I know I'm not gonna convince you, and I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I can still pray for you, and I know God will provide.

God loves you.
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:53 PM #60
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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
Yes, I know. He's outnumbered because being a Christian and professing your faith is tough. Why? Because you and other atheists persecute and oppress him for doing so. Don't worry, I'm not criticizing you, nor any other atheist, I'm criticizing the other Christians who are ashamed of their faith. The world today is very un-friendly toward us, and it mocks and demoralizes the Christians who even think about admiting(sp?) their faith, much less promoting it. I know I'm not gonna convince you, and I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I can still pray for you, and I know God will provide.

God loves you.
-Tyler
Stop trying to play the oppressed religious downtrodden. Christians make up over 1 billion people and you are trying to say you are oppresses by the few million atheists? HA.

Christians in this country try to force their beliefs by swaying politicians to their side. By pushing their religious icons in public places. Keep your religion to yourself and us oppressors will not point out the fallioucius nature of your religion.
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:03 PM #61
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I didn't say that our relationship with God was oppressed, I said that our vocalizing of such an opinion was oppressed. Every time I mention God, or try to share my faith, I am scrutinized and criticized by the people around me, whether it be vocally or simply just a dirty look. Evangelism is part of our belief, we are asked to spread the Good News by God, and I for one am more than happy to do so.

As for your remark about politics, I can't comment, because I don't follow nor do I care about them. However, I do know that this country was founded upon Christian principles, so don't say that we "force our beliefs" through politicians. Faith was a major player in the creation of this country, I don't think it should sit the bench now simply because the game has changed.
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:06 PM #62
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Originally Posted by ladd_17 View Post
I didn't say that our relationship with God was oppressed, I said that our vocalizing of such an opinion was oppressed. Every time I mention God, or try to share my faith, I am scrutinized and criticized by the people around me, whether it be vocally or simply just a dirty look. Evangelism is part of our belief, we are asked to spread the Good News by God, and I for one am more than happy to do so.

As for your remark about politics, I can't comment, because I don't follow nor do I care about them. However, I do know that this country was founded upon Christian principles, so don't say that we "force our beliefs" through politicians. Faith was a major player in the creation of this country, I don't think it should sit the bench now simply because the game has changed.
The country was NOT found on christian principles. I wish you guys had some type of clue as to the origin of your own country. But then again you believe in myths.

And the reason people give you dirty looks is christians just do not know when to shut up. There is a time and place to discuss your religion, not everywhere and everyplace.
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Old 12-19-2006, 09:09 PM #63
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That is the problem with Christians-you THINK you have it figured it out and you are the only ones who KNOW....
And hes outnumbered for a reason, you know.
I only KNOW what I hold true in my heart I can not speak for you or anyone else here, but I do have "it" figured out and by "it" I mean the direction that God wants my life to take ,it's simple he wants me to be more like his son Jesus Christ and live my life to praise and glorify his name. I don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
As for Rambo being outnumbered... he has more people standing with him than you think it really wouldn't matter if it were 1 vs 100 my faith and trust in God would remain unshakable.
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