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Old 10-07-2006, 10:05 AM #106
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I haven't read the rest of this thread, so I don't know if this has been said, but I'm going to say it anyways.

In Utah it's legal for any teacher with a CCW (Concealed Carry permit) to carry onto public school grounds. Haven't heard of any of them going crazy and shooting up the school.
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Old 10-07-2006, 11:21 AM #107
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[quote=SynTek]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonlvandyke

We have police in this country for a reason. What we need I think is something like sky marshalls - but for schools. People who are highly trained in dealing with these situations - where making shots like the one I described above is their JOB. The requires more training than someone is going to obtain in a concealed weapons course. I had to take one for my permit, and essentially, all they do is make sure you can hit a target that is around 10 - 15 feet away. That isn't very difficult. They had me doing it with my left hand only by the end of the course because they thought I was showing off (I am right handed) and I was still hitting black. But that is not very difficult to do. Stress shooting IS difficult and that is why this is a job for professional marksmen.QUOTE]


You are entirely correct in your staements, however I wish to ammend your comments.

Your average beat cop does NOT have a high degree of marksmanship experience, especially under stessful situations. They do qualify regularly - that much is true. My stance is you give teachers a weapon IF they WANT one AND can get the CCW course, along with very regualr qualifications. Hell, you can even set up courses for this sort of thing for very little at a centralized location for next to nothing that will aid them even more.

I just think it's silly to say you don't want to let someone defend themselves because they won't do it right.

Ok maybe someone with training more along the lines of an air marshall is what we need. My concern is that a lot of the teachers I had in high school were not the sharpest knives in the drawer. There are plenty who were pretty good, but some just aren't that bright and I wouldn't trust them to make what is, but any standard, a difficult shot in a stressful situation. Furthermore, if I had a kid in school I would want teachers focused on teaching - not qualifying with their handgun. I really don't see why putting one heavily armed and highly trained professional in a school wouldn't be preferrable to arming high school teachers.
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Old 10-07-2006, 11:52 AM #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SynTek
I don't think I am going to be able to convince you of anything with an attitude like that.

Putting a firearm in a classroom "locked in a desk" will certainly not help matters at all should it be needed. And you're right it would allow for students to gain access to the weapon if they classroom is unattended. But that danger would be relatively the same as a student getting their hands on a parents or friends gun.

I think you are making a logical fallacy here. You assume that the only thing holding back a kid from attempting a massacre is lack of an appropiate firearm. Truth be told, if the student was planning such an endeavor they would get theri hands on one somewhere, as has been shown to be the case now many many times over.
I never claimed firearms were difficult to obtain or that they would be easier for potential shooters to obtain if they were carried by teachers. The only thing holding a student back from a massacre is the will to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SynTek
If you arm teachers, I.E. you have them carry weapons on their person (I wouldnt' call you armed if the gun is in your desk, neither would the police) you provide a ready force of idividuals to call on in case of such an emergency. As I stated, so long as you have the teachers get the proper CCW permits and have the qualify at reguar intervals, you would have a body of individuals who are capable of returnig effective fire on a target.

Your assumption that "the student can get the drop on the teacher" is entirely correct. He may get the drop on one. But if the other teachers are armed, it allows them an opportunity to cover the escape of THEIR students, thus allowing for a lessening of potential tragedy. Besides, the teacher may get the drop on the student. Or maybe, the student, knowing many others will be armed, will not try such a risky endeavor.
Your last line is something that has been brought up many times in this thread. A risk is defined as "a venture undertaken without regard to possible loss or injury." When a kid goes in to a school to turn it into swiss cheese, do you think he thinks he has anything to lose? They know they're probably not getting out of there alive. The fact that a teacher might shoot them isn't going to do anything to deter them. Anyone worried about their life is probably not going to shoot up a school in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SynTek
Basically you have a minute increase in risk of done correctly (if done correctly a teacher can handle a weapon as effectively as a beat cop any day), while you have a substantial increase in security in event of a shooting. I don't see how you can argue that someone with a gun is far better off in a gun fight than someone who is without.
I'm not saying it won't help decrease the severity if there is a shooting, but is it really a practical solution? How many schools are there in the US? I can't find a figure on it, but I think if you were to add it up, the percentage of schools to experience a school shooting would be incredibly low. Wouldn't the money be better spent elsewhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SynTek
Then to deal with later issues of potential for body armor and the like. Acquisition of body armor is incredibly expensive, but not outside the boudns of possibility for a student indending on a rampage to acqure. However, there is an assumption that this armor would provide LOTS of protection against pistol fire. Body armor of any reasonable protectivness is VERY difficult to conceal. Anything over LVL II is obvious even to the untrained eye. A kid coming into school in heavy armor would stand out a great deal, thus helping to mitigate his tactical advantage. More to the point, body armor may stop a bullet but you still take the full force of it. At close range even a lowly 9mm to the chest will cause spectacular brusiing and deep tissue damage agaisnt an armored foe. In other words, if a teacher fires back and hits an armored student, the student will in all likelyhood go down.
Just to respond to your last sentence (I agree with everything else), there are instances where this has been shown to not always be the case, most notably the guys in the North Hollywood Shootout. The one with head to toe kevlar was struck numerous times with pistol and shotgun amunition, and he kept on going.
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Old 10-07-2006, 03:13 PM #109
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In Hollywood, the bad guys were being hit with low velocity 9mm and shotgun slugs that police are forced to use. The idea is that a low velocity slug won't over penetrate a target, and hit someone beyond them by accident.
So, you had cops with underpowered weapons shooting at people wearing body armor that would have done next to nothing to stop any decent rifle round used in hunting.
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Old 10-07-2006, 06:46 PM #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiral_Out

I'm not saying it won't help decrease the severity if there is a shooting, but is it really a practical solution? How many schools are there in the US? I can't find a figure on it, but I think if you were to add it up, the percentage of schools to experience a school shooting would be incredibly low. Wouldn't the money be better spent elsewhere?
A pratical solution? How many schools have metal detectors? How many schools are required to have people specifically hired to man those detectors? Is that a pratical solution?

Hiring just a few individuals in an entire state to run various ranges and courses would be sufficient in the smaller states to do the sort of training required. If the teachers were to carry guns purchased themselves (since a great many individuals own firearms anyway this isn't too terribly difficult to imagine) the cost is easily defrayed. Ammunition per teacher per month (assuming monthly qualifications) would be less than $25 dollars (assuming low cost 9mm ammunition was used - that can buy at least 100 rounds). If every single teacher in my school carried a gun and every single expense other than the purchase of a firearm were put on the school, it would only come out to about $2500 a month (80 facualty memebers, 25 dollars for ammunition, 5 dollars for targets, 1.25 dollars for general range upkeep). The school already emplyes 4 people part time to run the metal detectors, and their wages alone equal far more than that while not substantially increasing security by any means. It has already been established that a student attempting to shoot people in his school probably does not intend to walk out in anything less than handcuffs, so putting metal detectors in the school does no more to increase security (probably less) than putting guns in teacher's hands. At least with a firearm you are given the means to stop them. Given a metal detector you just find out they have a gun sooner.
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Old 10-07-2006, 09:25 PM #111
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Old 10-08-2006, 12:09 AM #112
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Metal detectors at entrances is all you need. As soon as some kid walks in the school and starts beeping have a resource officer come to check it out. If the kid comes in guns blazing you hit the emergency button and all the teachers procede with emergency procedure. Atleast invest in some safer doors that cant be shot through/open that easily.

And in most shootings/robberies the criminal has a gun. So it doesn't matter if you ban guns or not. Most of the time they will have one.
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Old 10-08-2006, 12:51 AM #113
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We have metal detectors in our schools here, and guess what? They don't do dick. All it takes is someone handing a gun in through a window, or opening a side door, and there you go, guns in school.
Besides, a determined shooter is just going to start shooting at the detector, and work their way in from there.
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Old 10-08-2006, 09:37 AM #114
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bars on windows

problem solved
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Old 10-08-2006, 09:53 AM #115
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Home schooling.

Problem solved.
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Old 10-08-2006, 10:32 AM #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wango_Tango
bars on windows

problem solved
Um, Fire Code? Also, last time I checked, bars on the windows don't stop someone from slipping anything through the bars. Don't forget the upper story windows also. Drop a rope, pull up a bag, and you have a gun in school, no problem.
How about we alarm all the windows? Yea, that was tried also. The problem is that once one of the window alarms does go off, how many students are you willing to search on the basis that someone, somewhere in the school might have a weapon? If I recall correctly, schools can search a locker at will, but it requires probable cause, and a cop to search the person of a student.
Not to mention the emergency doors, which are alarmed, but aren't all that hard to disable. A school is swiss cheese in a security sense as far as weapons go.
Problem not solved.
Metal detectors are a "See, we are doing something" fix that does little to stop anything.
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Old 10-08-2006, 11:28 AM #117
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Spiral out has pwned overbear like 55 times in this thread. Decepti, I thought you were smarter then that. .
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Old 10-11-2006, 04:14 PM #118
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Quote:
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Not by shooting the guy, but maybe changing his mind with a slide racking.
Exactly, tell me you wouldn't **** your pants if you were trying to rape someone and you heard a slide being racked and someone yelling for you to get the **** away from said victim.
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Old 10-11-2006, 07:46 PM #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Overbear
not relay, I know a number of friends in texas, a few in KS/MO area, and a few in OR that are all on HS shooting teams. Not everyone thinks guns jump up off the table on their own and do bad things.
Well now, I'm pretty sure no one around here has either.
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