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Old 09-14-2006, 12:55 PM #64
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I really can't grasp what you are sayin, probably because its too early. But that diagram is the picutre of the balanced valve.

Are you asking if the o-ring on the poppet is enough to seal the poppet off from the incoming air? If you are then yes, otherwise when you gas the gun up there would be leaks down the barrel. I don't know if thats the answer you were looking for sorry if I couldn't help

As for the whole debate of e-tippman vs e-spyder. Its a lot different. You know whats funny to me is that I just joke about the gun being an e-tippmann, I actually didn't think of it until someone brought it to my attention. Rather I thought of it as a matrix style bolt and the tophat was tossed out and a poppet was implimented. If you know anything about the matrix you would know the tophat is where the air is moved across to shoot the gun etc.

Anyhow, enough discussion about what gun this is a replica of. This discussion can go on all day long. People who like to dumb life down would claim its a tippmann, others who view sports as more than hitting a ball and chasing it actually see the different between these guns. Its your choice.

As for the Intimidator and Ego discussion, to each his own. But if I were to make a claim my strongest one would be that there is a sleeve utilized in both guns. I'll let you guys decide who came up with that idea first. Afterall which part of a spyder would the sleeve be equal to?

Love to all guns except anything made by Drew........ok I'm done. Why can't you guys just let the gun be; which is a really well executed design on Bob and his crew's behalf? Its a well shooting gun accept it unless you havn't shot it then go shoot one and agree that its good or maybe you don't like it who knows.
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Old 09-14-2006, 01:36 PM #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y0da900

So the internal diagram on the quick start manual is just of very deceptive scale, and the o-ring sealing the poppet assembly (circled in green) is not as compressed as shown, and has enough surface area for it to help balance the valve? Because at least in that diagram, and in the photos of the poppet in the first post, it definitely doesnt seem to be enough to make much of a difference.

Wouldn't the rear portion of the poppet assembly being iolated from the pressure make a much larger difference than pressure acting on what little surface area that o-ring has exposed to it?
If my calculations are correct, at 180 psi that little oring generates 26 lbs of backwards force. effectively counter balancing the force being put on the poppet head. It is not a 100% balance, Bob does not want that, he wants it to push towards the seal point. This way you can have a way larger opening with out having the force being applied of the larger poppet size. Making it easier for the ram to open a large poppet.

Jim
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Old 09-14-2006, 01:57 PM #66
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Is there any basic difference in how the Balanced Poppet in the Onyx works compared to the Empire Pressure Balanced Ramsleeve? Like do they operate in the same way or is it something new?


And will users of the Onyx experience the hassles people had with the Empire version?
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Old 09-14-2006, 02:01 PM #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ripper Machinist
If my calculations are correct, at 180 psi that little oring generates 26 lbs of backwards force. effectively counter balancing the force being put on the poppet head. It is not a 100% balance, Bob does not want that, he wants it to push towards the seal point. This way you can have a way larger opening with out having the force being applied of the larger poppet size. Making it easier for the ram to open a large poppet.

Jim

Do you mean backwards as in in the opposite direction of force acting on the poppet itself? If it were to have 26 pounds of force at 180psi, then it would need a surface area of .14 square inches, which is impossible with that size o-ring, it's entire cross sectional surface area being roughly .086 square inches, which could make for no more than 15.5 pounds assuming no crush of the ring at all, which is not the case.

Math errors aside, you answered my question I think, that the o-ring there, while not readily visible in that diagram, has enough surface area present to the operating pressure to create enough of an opposing force that the valve can legally be called balanced?

Please don't take this as argumentative, I'm just trying to understand the operation of this the best I can.
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Old 09-14-2006, 02:18 PM #68
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is it just me or does the poppit look very familiar to the poppit that ended up getting replaced in the gen4s?
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Old 09-14-2006, 02:19 PM #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyn1370
is it just me or does the poppit look very familiar to the poppit that ended up getting replaced in the gen4s?
Holy crap, you're right! That delrin poppet does look exactly like every other delrin poppet out there!
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Old 09-14-2006, 03:03 PM #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electraman[school]
Is there any basic difference in how the Balanced Poppet in the Onyx works compared to the Empire Pressure Balanced Ramsleeve? Like do they operate in the same way or is it something new?


And will users of the Onyx experience the hassles people had with the Empire version?
It's not the same as the Empire Pressure balanced set up.

It IS the same concept as the Gen 4 valve, but this time the gas can vent from behind the poppet and out through the barel.

In essence I guess this should be called a 'reduced area valve' rather than a pressure balanced valve. What it does is reduce the forces to close, created by the gas pressure, and makes it more dependent on the spring force.

Same end result, but a different way of doing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wyn1370
is it just me or does the poppit look very familiar to the poppit that ended up getting replaced in the gen4s?
It's the same concept, with one vital difference, if any air escapes around the o-ring it can bleed out of the barrel, rather than build up.

Yoda, the force closing the valve due to the air pressure, is calculated by the difference in surface areas from the edge where the gold part seals on the aluminium housing (just to the right of the red arrow) and the cross section area created by the sealing contact point of the poppet o-ring .

i.e. area of the cross section at the poppet interface to the housing minus the area created by the cross section of the poppet o-ring.
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Old 09-14-2006, 03:29 PM #71
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Simon, did you have a hand in the design, testing, or development of the Onyx?

I'm debating whether to sell my 2 timmy's and some stuff and get an Onyx......
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Old 09-14-2006, 03:38 PM #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electraman7
Simon, did you have a hand in the design, testing, or development of the Onyx?

I'm debating whether to sell my 2 timmy's and some stuff and get an Onyx......
I belive Manike built one of the very first prototypes with Bob. Anything that has Bob Long and Manike's engineering going into it is bound to be amazing.
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Old 09-14-2006, 04:04 PM #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electraman7
Simon, did you have a hand in the design, testing, or development of the Onyx?

I'm debating whether to sell my 2 timmy's and some stuff and get an Onyx......
Not really.

I helped bob assemble and modify the first prototype and talked through a few points and ideas with him on the design/manufacturing, but haven't done anything since that which was back in Feb/March.

I haven't done any of the design work (other than provide a few comments and ideas), development or testing (since getting that first gun to shoot with Bob).

So it's not something I've been involved with. I am just always fascinated by new stuff and try to pay attention to what's going on in the industry.

I believe the Gun has been designed/developed/tested by a team of people from Bob Long, Ripper Machinist (Jim), Jason, the timmy techs (Terry, Jason, Bjorn and others) as well as Bob's team.

Any gun design/project takes input from a bunch of people, and Bob is lucky to have a good team of people around him.
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Old 09-14-2006, 04:45 PM #74
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Oh, I wasnt sure if you were doing some work on the side with/for him, still, good to hear it seems to have Simon's approval.....
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Old 09-14-2006, 05:48 PM #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manike
It's not the same as the Empire Pressure balanced set up.

It IS the same concept as the Gen 4 valve, but this time the gas can vent from behind the poppet and out through the barel.

In essence I guess this should be called a 'reduced area valve' rather than a pressure balanced valve. What it does is reduce the forces to close, created by the gas pressure, and makes it more dependent on the spring force.

Same end result, but a different way of doing it.



It's the same concept, with one vital difference, if any air escapes around the o-ring it can bleed out of the barrel, rather than build up.

Yoda, the force closing the valve due to the air pressure, is calculated by the difference in surface areas from the edge where the gold part seals on the aluminium housing (just to the right of the red arrow) and the cross section area created by the sealing contact point of the poppet o-ring .

i.e. area of the cross section at the poppet interface to the housing minus the area created by the cross section of the poppet o-ring.

Thanks Simon, that is what I was getting at, that the benefit came from a drastically reduced cross sectional area rather than manipulation of where the pressure acts. I know how to get the force closing it, I was just curious if that force acting against the o-ring was what was giving it the balanced designation, or if it was a different concept with the same result being called the same thing.
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Old 09-14-2006, 08:24 PM #76
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i found it yes curiosity(SP) satisfied.
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Old 09-14-2006, 08:24 PM #77
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I wonder how long it'll be before planet eclipse slaps an eblade and some QEV's on it and calls it the 2008 Ego!
Hopefully not too long because that's what I'm saving for.

Or maybe I'll just wait to hear reviews on the Onyx.
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Old 09-14-2006, 09:22 PM #78
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The OTB Advent was going to be a spool gun
omg i was thinking about that gun last week,
and searching for pics in old mags, man less than 2 oz, disposable internals if i remember, man i want to see more of that gun
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Old 09-14-2006, 09:48 PM #79
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Originally Posted by Dr.Hbrt,Actionfigure
omg i was thinking about that gun last week,
and searching for pics in old mags, man less than 2 oz, disposable internals if i remember, man i want to see more of that gun

Google is your friend.

http://img13.exs.cx/img13/1866/Advent_Trifold_back.jpg
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Old 09-14-2006, 10:20 PM #80
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thats a vapor bushy
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Old 09-15-2006, 11:44 AM #81
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Well it's the only OTB Advent pic that pops up anywhere.
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