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Old 09-04-2006, 12:57 AM #22
HK*ARMY*11289
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Originally Posted by Lurker27
If the trigger returns with more force than it takes to pull it youare asking for runaway bounce.

Period.
Debounce/Mechanical Bounce..................Have they releashed that feature in timmys yet.................................yes i think they have and you can use it to............
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Old 09-04-2006, 02:09 AM #23
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Yes I think he knows what he's talking about more than you. If your trigger's return force is more than the original pull force, then the trigger will come back, collide with the end of the frame or whatever stops it, it will bounce, and cause extra shots because of physics. This is somthing a board cannot prevent.
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Old 09-04-2006, 08:54 AM #24
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isnt there already a spring in the trigger lol if you wnat to make bounce just install some magnets....
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:27 PM #25
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The matter of who knows more than who is not really something worth discussing. The amount of bounce the trigger has can easily be controlled. As I've stated previously, there are ways to make sure that the return force doesn't cause any additional shots. The amount of trigger slack in front of the firing point would be a definite factor. Just about any gun can bounce if the trigger is setup improperly. Debounce can take care of this though. The way debounce works is that if you set it to 20, then the board will wait 20ms before recognizing another trigger pull. If this was set to 50, then it should be pretty obvious that if the gun is cycling over 20 bps, then the trigger bouncing immediately after the trigger pull (Note: not even at the end of the firing cycle, at the same time the ram begins to move forward) will not cause an additional shot.

Furthermore, how much do you people think the trigger will bounce off of the metal frame? Neither the trigger or the frame are rubber, or spring-like (yes, I know that's not a word). Will it bounce some? Probably. Can the trigger be setup so that this bounce doesn't cause an additional shot? Absolutely. Let's say the trigger pull is a full 1mm measured from the bottom of the trigger, with the firing point .5mm into the travel. As long as there is some pull resistance other than the microswitch, the trigger shouldn't recoil .5mm. This could be a magnet, it could be a lighter spring. Either way, the heavy spring returning the trigger shouldn't cause this to happen.

Either way, I've always been a skeptic with every new invention in paintball, and I certainly understand anyone who is a skeptic on this, and those who will be skeptical about any of the other crazy things I'm working on. Only field testing will tell. I've got to do some re-design to make it fit in newer Timmy frames with minimal modification, but once that's done, we should see some results from people other than me. That's the benefit of testing it with people I've never met. Nobody can claim the results will be biased.

Nixon5 - This wouldn't be just putting a spring in the trigger. It would be using a separate spring for the return force only. The SCATR's spring won't apply force to the trigger until after the microswitch has been hit and the firing sequence begins.
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Old 09-05-2006, 12:53 PM #26
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If the extra return force kicks in AFTER the firing point I see no problem, and would probably give a pretty nice feel. Active trigger returning systems, be they pneumatic or electromagnetic, are almost always illegal.

That said, good luck, I hope things turn out nicely.
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Old 09-05-2006, 01:38 PM #27
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Lurker - Any idea on the grounds in which they are ruled illegal? Is it just due to trigger bounce, or is it something else? They let the AutomagRT be legal, so I wouldn't think that there would be a problem as long as it still one shot one pull.

The system kicks in as soon as the microswitch is hit. In the firing sequence, it literally would happen at the same time as the ram moving forward. What's nice is that the pressure of the trigger's return force wouldn't let off until the ram starts to return to the rear position. In thinking about it, this should mean that the initial recoil off of the trigger frame wouldn't happen, because the forward force on the trigger would still be in effect at that point. I have a feeling that getting the spring tension properly adjusted will be the key between having it illegal and having it see no real benefit. That middle ground, though, will theoretically offer one heck of a nice pull, though it may take some getting used to.

Thanks for the input, though. Any time someone can shoot holes in my designs it's actually a good thing, because I can then see more clearly the negative side of things.
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:01 PM #28
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Ill be a tester I can take a pic of the drill/press if you dont believe I have one and can do it... It will be on a clamshell 2k2 frame so you can see the versitility of it? any way Im in ohio PM me
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Old 09-05-2006, 04:25 PM #29
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The automag RT was illegal. Very illegal. Keep in mind WHY it exhibits the runaway effect, though, it is due to the shootup effect from the RT regulator itself...In a normal setup the pull is the same as the return force. When you use an HP tank to cross that point you get runaway bounce.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:19 PM #30
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Really? That's interesting. I know when it debuted in 1996 it was considered legal, and for a long time the Jacksonville Warriors were using them, atleast that's who I think it was.

If runaway triggers/bounce is the problem, though, I'm certain this can be solved. We'll just have to wait until it's been used. After the initial testing, I'll be sure to email some of the various league officials.

CockerMcgoo - This isn't a simple mod, it'd be manufacturing the part. I've got a couple of locals, which is good enough for now. If that testing works out well, I'll definitely post, and see about getting a few more made for sale/continued testing... depending on how the leagues respond.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:27 PM #31
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Like i said, as long as it isnt stronger BEFORE the pull, but more a trampoline after, you'll be fine, and I think it would feel quite nice.
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:34 PM #32
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That's the basic theory, I can't wait to see if it works out as planned. Thanks again for all the input Lurker.
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Old 09-05-2006, 06:24 PM #33
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