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Old 05-23-2006, 05:42 PM #22
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I would support a voucher to: parents with kids in private schools, effective the fiscal cycle AFTER their children's first year and a voucher to those with no children in local schools SO LONG as that district is fiscally secure. if the districts 2010 budget comes up short, everyone will be paying '11.
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Old 05-23-2006, 06:22 PM #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Furious Ge0rge
That's why we need to elect better officials into office. That includes Department Heads.
Or not.

Centralized planning doesn't work because it forces too few individuals to focus on too many issues.

Why the hell should education be about equality and bettering our culture and all that garbage when most people value education to differing extents, assuming they value it at all? Why should I be responsible for funding the betterment of society while others benefit from my tax contributions yet do little or nothing to contribute to social development?

And moral responsibility? What the ****? Assuming this can even be discussed in terms of morality it is not be the purpose of our government to impose moral standards or requirements onto people. If you want to fund a failing system with your money then knock yourself out, but don't ask me to waste my money on your ideas, especially when evidence suggests they are already doomed to failure.

Quote:
Exactly why we need more student-friendly teachers. Too many teachers are there for the check at the end of the month, and not the satisfaction of raising and teaching our future.
You have it the wrong way around. A lot of people go into education because they like kids believe they'll be making a difference in their lives. The problem is that these people tend to be idiots or underqualified. Education majors have one of the lowest collective GPAs of any major and low pay for teachers only attracts people who cannot compete for higher paying jobs. In other words, more qualified individuals are more likely to take higher paying jobs while the less qualified end up as teachers. I'm not implying that people best qualified for teaching do not like kids, nor am I suggesting that all current teachers like kids. I'm sure there are also a few well qualified individuals who take the economic hit to become teachers as well. However, it clearly has not been enough to make any sort of significant difference.

In any case, this is also an argument for privatizing education. Private schools will likely pay more than their public counterparts and thus attract a better breed of teacher. Economic advantages aside, private schools would be less susceptible to political issues caused by dueling political parties or by bureaucratic machines.

Slateman - When I talk about relevance in literature I am not talking about math and science but rather about how relevant the reading material is to how people live in the modern era. Shakespeare is by no means down for the count but it was likely more relevant to the people who lived during the era in which it was written. Romeo and Juliet probably meant more to people during the time in which it was written because arranged marriages were much more common then. I am not suggesting it cannot be discussed in terms of how today's youth deal with their love lives or that King Lear cannot be discussed in terms of how children treat their parents today, but rather that it means less today than it did then, especially when taking into consideration more recent literature. Death of a Salesman was far more interesting to me than King Lear, though they both shared similar concepts.

4rtshark - Students "grow" from exposure to anythign more significant than See Spot Run, whether it be the Iliad or the Odyssesy or Fight Club. The problem with teaching Shakespeare, or apparently most other literature in K-12, is that most teachers don't bother teaching in a way that fosters the development of critical thinking skills. I would hypothesize that teaching more recent literature at least improves, to some extent, the chances of students doing some actual thinking as opposed to repeating or reinterpreting what has already been said about the classics.
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Old 05-23-2006, 06:50 PM #24
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Something I wrote about education a while back...



What The American Education System Can Learn

From The Japanese System

While Still Maintaining Its Foundation



The American education system is under fire from critics claiming that in

light of our low international test scores in math and science, we should adopt

some aspects of alternative education systems such as the one currently

established in Japan. According to an article "New Math-Science Study

Rates U.S Students Mediocre At Best" William S. Robinson points out

that in a study that measures the skills of eight-graders from 38 countries

in math and science, American scores were better than 18 other countries

but did not improve from the previous study taken four years earlier.

Robinson further explains that Singapore, Korea, Hong Kong, and the

Czech Republic were the top proforming countries in math

and science. The assignment for this essay is to examine the

advantages and disadvantages of the American and Japanese education

systems and come to a conclusion as to what aspects the American

system should adopt from the Japanese system in order to improve

their current sysrtem. There are several things that the American

system can improve on while still keeping the foundation that

makes the American education system well-suited for its culture.



According to "School Here In The United States And There In Vietnam" a

student essay, the author explains that in the Asain systems of education,

teachers emphasize fact and self-dicipline while American educator's prefer

to emphasize the experimentation of ideas that are vital to our everyday lives.

The philosophies of each system are so dramaticly different that others think

that it is impossible for the American education system to integrate principles

of the Asain system without asking American culture to accept a radically

different way of viewing what education is to them. In "Strengths, Weaknesses,

And Lessons Of Japanese Education" James fallows writes about a poll taken,

comparing high school students' attitudes towards education in the U.S. and

Japan. According to this poll: Japanese students were worried about exams

and study while students from America were more worried about sex. Knowing

all of this it is possible to say that the values American culture holds for their

education are very different than Japanese culture.



Is this cultural gap so large that the American system simply cannot

incorporate values and techniques from other countries because they are

culturally too different? Or is there some conditions that would be beneficial

to American students that also would easily assimilate into their current system?

In "Why The United States Should Look To Japan For Better Schools" Brent

Staples points out that Americans tend to roll their eyes when researchers

raise the Japanese comparison, the most common response is that Japanese

culture is "nothing like ours". Staples goes on further saying "Never the less, the

Japanese system has features that could be fruitfully imitated here".

Although there are many good things about the American education system,

there are issues that must be addressed such as the cultivation of competent

teachers, more balanced distribution of funds to schools, and appointment

of more expierienced teachers to areas where they are uncommon.



Staples says the United States has yet to even approach the large problem

of how teachers are trained and how they teach what they teach. Japanese

teacher-development strategies such as the process of "lesson study" which

allow teachers to revise and refine lessons that are then shared with other

educators through video and sometimes conventions is one of the major things

Staples would like to see incorporated into the current American education

system. Staples believes that "In addition to helping novices, this system

builds a publicly accessible body of knowledge about what works in the

classroom". It would be simple to implement such a process into America's

current education system without changing the foundation in which its society

is accustomed to. America's current strategy towards training teachers is

that "novice teachers are presumed competent on the first day and that they

have few oppurtunities in their careers to watch successful colleagues in

action." says Staples in the same article. An American designed version of

the "lesson study" technique could greatly improve how much students learn

by giving them a more stable and experienced education system that also

accommodates the diversity of American culture.



Another very large problem with the American education system is the

horrible allocation of funds and expirenced teachers to areas where they

are most needed. According to the article "New Math-Science Study

Rates U.S. Students Mediocre At Best" William S. Robinson says

"American public schools, especially those located in cities, have trouble

finding well-trained math and science teachers". In "Strengths, Weaknesses,

And Lessons Of Japanese Education" James Fallows explains the

Japanese solution to this problem, "Principals and teachers are

rotated from school to school every few years in an attempt to keep

achievement levels uniform throughout Japan". Currently, American schools

are extremely divided, most schools either have an abundance of well-educated

instructors or there is a scarcity of competent teachers. William S. Robinson

offers his solution to the problem in the conclusion of his previously mentioned

article "We need to even out the funding extremes that make our best and

worst schools so different from eachother". The propper appointment of

funds would mean that American schools could raise the wages of teachers

and not be limited to hiring incompetent teachers for bottom-dollar. America

could raise its standard of teacher experience as it increases their wages.

The money will also pay for the experienced teachers as they rotate to

schools that need them the most.



While there are many other things wrong with the American education

system, at its foundation it is tailor-made for how its diverse culture

views accomplishment. One good thing the American system emphasizes

is freedom of choice which is appropiate for its society. In "Strengths,

Weakness, And Lessons Of Japanese Education" Fallows explains

that the Japanese recognize that the values towards education forced upon

Japanese students often constricts the breathing space for children who do

not fit or are not comfortable in this rigid mold. In the Japanese education

system, students are forced to assimilate to a standard way of life in

order to achieve a specified illusion of success. According to Fallows

in the same article there is so much pressure on Japanese students to

achieve high test scores in order to get into their choice of a university,

that many students leave home for years in order to participate in

full-time cramming sessions. Fallows further explains that

Japanese students are told that if they do not get into a good university

then they will get a bad job and ultimately never achieve happinness.

While in contrast, in the American education system, students are given

the freedom to interpret what success is to them personally and what

path they endure in order to reach it. Japanese students are cultured to

conform to a definitive image of what success is to their society and are

told that happiness can only be achieved by meeting that standard of

accomplishment. They follow an orthodox design for their life in order

to achieve that standard. In America, students are given the tools to achieve

what they have determined as success, yet it is their individual choice to

embrace and take advantage of it. In "We Should Cherish Our Childrens

Freedom To Think" Kie Ho explains that disgruntled American parents

forget that in this country their children are able to experiment freely with

ideas and without this they will not really be able to think or to believe in

themselves. This freedom of being able to choose and experiment is a

great advantage for those American students who are willing to snatch

success from the cold, dead, and bloody hands of opportunity, but at the

same time it is a large disadvantage for those who wish to be carried through

life. The American attitude towards success is selfish; viewing success as

subsequent occurring moments of happiness collected from modest interval

accomplishments and in order to improve their education system their solutions

to problems must accommodate this cultural attitude.
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Old 05-23-2006, 06:51 PM #25
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There are alot of problems with the American education system and the

Japanese system does offer some features that would benefit American

students. Amongst others, problems like poor training for American teachers

severely hinders the potential quality of their students education. Incorporating

a system like that of Japan's "lesson study" program could help novice

American teachers by providing them an outline of how to successfully teach

their students. Other complications in the American system such as poor

distribution of funds to schools create a large difference between their best and

worst schools. If America raises the wages of its teachers it will be also able to

raise the standard of education before becoming a teacher. Another problem

is that most American public schools especially those located in cities have

trouble hiring experienced educators. The Japanese have a great solution to

this problem in which they rotate principals and teachers in order to keep the

achievement of its students uniform throughout their country. In "Strengths,

Weaknesses, And Lessons Of Japanese Education" James Fallows explains

that if America were try to be exactly like Japan that they could never be

anything more but a second-rate immitation and that they would have to

give up the values that are not only crucial to its success but constitute

its example to the world. Although there are many things that America can

learn from Japan such as the propper cultivation of teachers, America must

hold onto the aspects that make their education system unique and fitting

for their culture.
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:20 PM #26
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In order to implement some of those reforms, such as a rotating schedule for teachers and principals, one would require not only a greater degree of centralization for the sake of organizing a national rotation, but also a change in political and social culture which would tolerate increased centralization and constant movement. Culture matters - what works for one country may not work for another. That does not necessarily make rotating deployments or assignments a bad idea, but attempts to move teachers and principals around every few years will likely result in hostilities between academic faculty and management.

If a private enterprise wants to attempt to do this either by coordinating with other education businesses or by controlling a large portion of the geographical education market, then they should go ahead and have a ball. I'd like to see how it works out, so long as I don't have to pay for it.
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:26 PM #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadLock Doc
In order to implement some of those reforms, such as a rotating schedule for teachers and principals, one would require not only a greater degree of centralization for the sake of organizing a national rotation, but also a change in political and social culture which would tolerate increased centralization and constant movement. Culture matters - what works for one country may not work for another. That does not necessarily make rotating deployments or assignments a bad idea, but attempts to move teachers and principals around every few years will likely result in hostilities between academic faculty and management.

If a private enterprise wants to attempt to do this either by coordinating with other education businesses or by controlling a large portion of the geographical education market, then they should go ahead and have a ball. I'd like to see how it works out, so long as I don't have to pay for it.
Since the United States is much larger than Japan, instead of a nation wide rotation system, it could possily be narrowed down to individual states or even districts. The increased wages is what will most likely bring in more professional teachers to schools that need them.

Last edited by XOne : 05-23-2006 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:28 PM #28
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Okay, with the Japanese comparison..
Many Japanese follow the Confucian belief that one should devote one's life to wisdom and knowledge. That central belief has molded their society to value education at the upmost level of priority.

The Japanese also are much different in that they just recently industrialized about the late 1880's and more so during the WW2 period. The idea of innovation, and the necessity to be supreme to survive has been inprinted in their psyche. If they were not the best then they would simply lose the War, and they realized that thus producing a highly competitive education system. Japan also is surrounded by enemies on three sides and it realizes it does not have the natural resources to defend itself, but it can use the minds of Japanese to avoid conflict. From a constant state of being the underdog and always open to attack the Japanese education system has suceeded.

Let us not forget that Japan has nowhere near the immigration level of the United States.

The United States has 13% of its official population born in other countries. This number itself puts strain on the education system as these people had to be taught, and funds that could of been used for other programs were instead used for welcoming these students into America. And again, many of these immigrants come with little education and drag their peers down with them. If you surround a student with excellence then he will become excellent, in the spirit of competion.

The US holds enormous geopolitical and resource power due to its Geography. There has never really been a massive threat. The last real threat was Hitler in WW2, but we still had a large moat between us and him. The sense of urgency is not as high as Japan due to our state of safety. Less people feel motivated as they do not hold the Confucian ideals or do not feel nationally motivated.

Japanese culture is also more focused on progressive change. Religion does not play the same role as it does here in the states. The US is fairly conservative. New scientific advances are encouraged at a much higher rate. Japanese workers feel nationalistic in many fields, whether it be the factory or garbage disposal.

Their society is not more technological just more inclined on more expensive products. The market isn't for that budget cell phone like the US, but a $1000 cell phone. With the focus on higher priced goods, naturally people will want to understand these instruments.

The parental structure in Japan is also much stronger as highlighted by nationalistic and confucian ideals. The problem with America is that families have been raised on the status quo and passed that on to their children. "A C is fine, I got C's and I am fine." This idea discourage progress.

Basically, America's Problems:
Immigration
Lack of Nationalism
Lack of Confucian Ideals
Lack of Insecurity
Lack of Family strength

Education starts at home.
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Old 05-23-2006, 07:36 PM #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I love Impulses
Okay, with the Japanese comparison..
Many Japanese follow the Confucian belief that one should devote one's life to wisdom and knowledge. That central belief has molded their society to value education at the upmost level of priority.

The Japanese also are much different in that they just recently industrialized about the late 1880's and more so during the WW2 period. The idea of innovation, and the necessity to be supreme to survive has been inprinted in their psyche. If they were not the best then they would simply lose the War, and they realized that thus producing a highly competitive education system. Japan also is surrounded by enemies on three sides and it realizes it does not have the natural resources to defend itself, but it can use the minds of Japanese to avoid conflict. From a constant state of being the underdog and always open to attack the Japanese education system has suceeded.

Let us not forget that Japan has nowhere near the immigration level of the United States.

The United States has 13% of its official population born in other countries. This number itself puts strain on the education system as these people had to be taught, and funds that could of been used for other programs were instead used for welcoming these students into America. And again, many of these immigrants come with little education and drag their peers down with them. If you surround a student with excellence then he will become excellent, in the spirit of competion.

The US holds enormous geopolitical and resource power due to its Geography. There has never really been a massive threat. The last real threat was Hitler in WW2, but we still had a large moat between us and him. The sense of urgency is not as high as Japan due to our state of safety. Less people feel motivated as they do not hold the Confucian ideals or do not feel nationally motivated.

Japanese culture is also more focused on progressive change. Religion does not play the same role as it does here in the states. The US is fairly conservative. New scientific advances are encouraged at a much higher rate. Japanese workers feel nationalistic in many fields, whether it be the factory or garbage disposal.

Their society is not more technological just more inclined on more expensive products. The market isn't for that budget cell phone like the US, but a $1000 cell phone. With the focus on higher priced goods, naturally people will want to understand these instruments.

The parental structure in Japan is also much stronger as highlighted by nationalistic and confucian ideals. The problem with America is that families have been raised on the status quo and passed that on to their children. "A C is fine, I got C's and I am fine." This idea discourage progress.

Basically, America's Problems:
Immigration
Lack of Nationalism
Lack of Confucian Ideals
Lack of Insecurity
Lack of Family strength

Education starts at home.
You are completely wrong about the immigration issue. If you think that is the biggest issues when teachers are barely able to live off of their salaries and our best and worst schools are so different than each other, then you need to get your priorities in order. Also, in the majority of countries around the world, such as Vietnam, they are taught more then 1 language. You cannot blame all of the problems with education on people who do not know how to speak english, when almost every other country besides the United States teaches more then 1 language.

If you are talking about the cultural differences between the races, then what does that have to do with any of the suggestions I made?

Last edited by XOne : 05-23-2006 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 05-23-2006, 08:18 PM #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XOne
You are completely wrong about the immigration issue. If you think that is the biggest issues when teachers are barely able to live off of their salaries and our best and worst schools are so different than each other, then you need to get your priorities in order. Also, in the majority of countries around the world, such as Vietnam, they are taught more then 1 language. You cannot blame all of the problems with education on people who do not know how to speak english, when almost every other country besides the United States teaches more then 1 language.

If you are talking about the cultural differences between the races, then what does that have to do with any of the suggestions I made?
Immigration: Student must be at a certain grade level whether or not he/she is at it, and they must learn in a foreign language while doing it. Don't tell me that isn't a disability in learning.

Teachers are lazy, they get paid 35k+ to work 8 hours a day half the year, best part time job you can get.

The cultural differences are huge, if you would of truly read my post then maybe you would understand that.
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:47 PM #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I love Impulses
Immigration: Student must be at a certain grade level whether or not he/she is at it, and they must learn in a foreign language while doing it. Don't tell me that isn't a disability in learning.

Teachers are lazy, they get paid 35k+ to work 8 hours a day half the year, best part time job you can get.

The cultural differences are huge, if you would of truly read my post then maybe you would understand that.
So is that disability, something almost every country in the world has to deal with, the determining factor of the problems with the US education system?

A job position such as a teacher shouldnt be just a part time job. It should be a profession that pays a survivable salary.

I know about cultural differences, I live in San Francisco, one of the most diverse places on this earth. It really doesnt make a difference.
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Old 05-23-2006, 11:50 PM #32
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There is just too much reading to jump in on this... So I'll swing and hope I hit, eh?

I had a partially Private education... before I go any further, Are you talking about Private vs. Public?
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Old 05-24-2006, 12:49 AM #33
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Quote:
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So is that disability, something almost every country in the world has to deal with, the determining factor of the problems with the US education system?

Not at the same rate or percentage, or at different types.


A job position such as a teacher shouldnt be just a part time job. It should be a profession that pays a survivable salary.
They work half the year, a part time job.

I know about cultural differences, I live in San Francisco, one of the most diverse places on this earth. It really doesnt make a difference.

Okay, move down to southern California and withness all the ELD classes and tell me it doesn't make a difference.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:03 AM #34
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SanFran along with the Bay area in general is arguably the most out of touch with reality bubble to ever have existed.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:53 AM #35
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Americans are just lazy. I am the son of an illegal immigrant and I speak English, Spannish, and German.

About the Bay Area being out of touch: Well, I am a moderate republican, so I have nothing to do with those people you claim are out of touch.

I could claim that you people are out of touch with urbanized diverse enviorments.
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Old 05-24-2006, 01:58 AM #36
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Quote:
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Americans are just lazy. I am the son of an illegal immigrant and I speak English, Spannish, and German.

About the Bay Area being out of touch: Well, I am a moderate republican, so I have nothing to do with those people you claim are out of touch.

I could claim that you people are out of touch with urbanized diverse enviorments.
Yes Americans are lazy, that was my point!

Good for you, most illegal immigrants/1st generation people dont' match your skills.

Again, come down to Southern California and notice the ELD classes.
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Old 05-24-2006, 02:06 AM #37
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Yes Americans are lazy, that was my point!

Good for you, most illegal immigrants/1st generation people dont' match your skills.

Again, come down to Southern California and notice the ELD classes.
I went to the worst public highschool in San Francisco, a school of 2200 students, in one of the most impoverished neighborhoods, 51% of students were latin, and about 12% of those didnt speak english as their first language.

It is not their language that hinders the quality of our education system, from what I observed these students had more of an appreciation for the oppurtunity they were given, than latins who spoke english as their first language. I am Mexican myself and I would deal with these people everyday.

One thing I am really satisfied with is our capabillities to help those with learning disabilities for example: Lack of the ability to hear and see.

It is not only illegal immigrants who do not match my skills, it is also Americans as a whole. They just want to speak english instead of expanding their minds and learning the languages of our world. The next language I am planning to learn is some form of an arabic language.

Also, the determining factor of what path an individual takes in his or her life, is the charecter of that individual, not his language or skin color.

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Old 05-24-2006, 07:09 PM #38
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Quote:
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I went to the worst public highschool in San Francisco, a school of 2200 students, in one of the most impoverished neighborhoods, 51% of students were latin, and about 12% of those didnt speak english as their first language.

It is not their language that hinders the quality of our education system, from what I observed these students had more of an appreciation for the oppurtunity they were given, than latins who spoke english as their first language. I am Mexican myself and I would deal with these people everyday.
http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~jmatthew...langbarr3.html
http://www.latinosforamerica.com/node/view/180

-California public schools, with 1.3 million kindergarten through 12th-grade students who don't speak English well enough to get by in class, are struggling to retrain teachers and find the best ways to teach.

- The state is spending an estimated $3.4 million a year to expand training and hiring through the "Recruitment Program of Bilingual Teachers" and the "Bilingual Teacher Training Program." The programs aim to expand teacher training for bilingual students in community colleges and universities.

- From 1990 to 1996, the proportion of California's public school students considered "limited English proficient" has jumped to nearly 25 percent from just over 18 percent, an Examiner study shows.

-In a Union City classroom, where 15 of 31 kindergarten students speak limited if any English, the teacher relies on props and pictures to show students what she's talking about.

-In a third-grade class in Emeryville, 16 of 20 students lack English skills. The teacher, with 27 years of experience, returned to school to learn how to teach an influx of children who speak limited English.

-In an elementary school in East Palo Alto, students in kindergarten through fourth grade divide their time between "teacher teams," learning subjects such as science, reading and math with a Spanish-speaking teacher, then working on oral English with an English-only teacher.


-Los Angeles: only 29% of Latinos graduated, with the majority leaving between 9th and 10th grades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by XOne
It is not only illegal immigrants who do not match my skills, it is also Americans as a whole. They just want to speak english instead of expanding their minds and learning the languages of our world.
How many countries will provide a free education to millions who don't speak the native language despite the fact that they were born and raised in said country?

Last edited by 25bps : 05-24-2006 at 07:14 PM.
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