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Old 04-23-2006, 10:27 AM #1
The Curly One
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How many fills from Storage bottle?

Ok, Guys, I need your opinions. I have updated my web site www.airetex.com and want to answer a question I always get.

How many fills will I get from each storage bottle?

What size compressor do I need for how many players?

What I want to do here is get your opinions and make a chart to put on the web site to help you and answer those questions.

I always try to support the Paintball community but I really do not know exactly how many fills to tell my customers and what size compressor to get for how many players.
Thanks, Bruce
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Old 04-23-2006, 11:24 AM #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Curly One
Ok, Guys, I need your opinions. I have updated my web site www.airetex.com and want to answer a question I always get.

How many fills will I get from each storage bottle?

What size compressor do I need for how many players?

What I want to do here is get your opinions and make a chart to put on the web site to help you and answer those questions.

I always try to support the Paintball community but I really do not know exactly how many fills to tell my customers and what size compressor to get for how many players.
Thanks, Bruce
An average paintball fill is about 5 cubic feet of air... (depends on the bottle, pressure, and refill pressure... but that should work good for the math) so just start doing the math from there. If you are filling 3 bottles a minute, a compressor would have to put out 15 cubic feet per minute. Now if storing, how much storage capacity do you have... how many bottles, what size, what pressure are they rated to, are you cascading or straight filling? Storage is just a way to fill without running the compressor - build a reserve so the compressor can work in slow times, to handle high air need times.

Problem is, if you have 4500 PSI storage bottles that are full, as soon as you fill one tank, the pressure drops, and the compressor has to kick back in - but probably won't as most times you have about a 300 psi window... but once it gets to 4200 psi, in kicks the compressor again. If setting a regulator for your fill station to only fill to 4000 psi for HP, it will work the compressor much less, and allow it to start at a slightly lower pressure which will increase its life.

If you are going to do 200 fills in a day, that is 1000 cubic feet of air, and a 10 cfm compressor would have to work about 1.6 hours.

And when it comes down to it... bottles are cheap. Under $300 for 4500 PSI storage tanks, so calculate the time you want to work the compressor, start out with a few, and if the compressor cycles too much... add another. If attempting to use too small a compressor, add more bottles so it can work in off hours.
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Old 04-27-2006, 08:23 AM #3
The Curly One
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So one other question

That brings up another question. How many times does a player usually refill during a day? Thanks, Bruce
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Old 04-27-2006, 08:53 AM #4
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when i got my 48/3000 i had to refill after every game since they only get about 500 shots off my spider.
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Old 04-27-2006, 12:35 PM #5
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The number of fills will vary, potentially greatly, day to day. For a simple reason, if someone comes and wants to fill a 88ci tank from zero to 4500 psi it will take a much more from your Cascade/storage bottle's pressure. A 45ci/4500 going from zero to that will take half what the 88ci tank will. And then what if you only need to top bottles off, say bottles are at 3000psi and you need them at 4500, not going to take nearly the demand from the bulk storage bottles.

Its really not something you can stamp even a relatively accurate number on, unlike CO2 where you can pretty much get that down to a fairly accurate calculation.

Like has been said, get quite a few storage bottles and set yourself up with a Cascade system to run the compressor as little as possible.
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Old 05-07-2006, 03:20 AM #6
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ok well how about this ?
on average, filling from 0-4500 psi with a 68/45 tank will u get off of one of these tanks
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Old 05-07-2006, 08:44 AM #7
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Well, we really still don't have enough info... how big are your storage bottles, and what is their pressure. I'll make the assumption they are the 440 4500 bottles. If you have a 4500 psi storage bottle, I hate to tell you, you can't get any fills on 68/45 to 4500... When you go for the first fill, the pressure in the two bottles will equalize, and you'll be below 4500. Depending on which size your bank is, and what pressure it is will determine how much drop you get with each fill. Plan on about taking about 120 psi per fill out of a single large bank bottle.

So first fill 4380, second fill 4260 etc. Set up your compressor to kick in at 4000 and off at 4500 and you'll get about 5 fills on one back bottle before your compressor cycles. Make it 10 bottles and the compressor will cycle every 50 fills.

I updated my calculator on our page to show the bank bottles for you as well: http://www.scubatoys.com/paintball/scubafills2.asp

Keep in mind the number that is shows going across the columns is if you were doing a cascade system with 3 storage bottles. If just hooking 3 in parallel, your pressure drop would be 1/3 of what I'm showing... or 3 fills to get to 4380, 6 to get to 4260 etc. If you want to send a link from your QA pages, that is fine with me.
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Last edited by GatSplat : 05-07-2006 at 09:24 AM.
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Old 05-07-2006, 10:19 AM #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatSplat
Well, we really still don't have enough info... how big are your storage bottles, and what is their pressure. I'll make the assumption they are the 440 4500 bottles. If you have a 4500 psi storage bottle, I hate to tell you, you can't get any fills on 68/45 to 4500... When you go for the first fill, the pressure in the two bottles will equalize, and you'll be below 4500. Depending on which size your bank is, and what pressure it is will determine how much drop you get with each fill. Plan on about taking about 120 psi per fill out of a single large bank bottle.

So first fill 4380, second fill 4260 etc. Set up your compressor to kick in at 4000 and off at 4500 and you'll get about 5 fills on one back bottle before your compressor cycles. Make it 10 bottles and the compressor will cycle every 50 fills.

I updated my calculator on our page to show the bank bottles for you as well: http://www.scubatoys.com/paintball/scubafills2.asp

Keep in mind the number that is shows going across the columns is if you were doing a cascade system with 3 storage bottles. If just hooking 3 in parallel, your pressure drop would be 1/3 of what I'm showing... or 3 fills to get to 4380, 6 to get to 4260 etc. If you want to send a link from your QA pages, that is fine with me.
can you give me a rouch estimate on playable fills, i dont need to know an exact number but my team is buying our own private airball fiels for practice and we're picking up a 6000 psi tank, it would be nice to know how long we could use it
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Old 05-07-2006, 11:02 AM #9
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This is always a hard question to answer for paintball players. The problem is that most fills come in rushes. Small tournaments with 15 five man teams would have 60 tanks needing to be filled back to back from almost empty first thing in the morning. An empty 68/4500 requires 15 Cubic Feet of air to fill. Using 444 Cubic feet tanks (standard 4500s), there is no way to bank that much air. 15CF X 60 tanks= 900 CF but only the first 500 PSI is usable. Tank pressure falls below 4K and players start complaining. When it goes below 3K, the tourney comes to a halt. The bottom line is, the air system has to be able to make as much air as is being used at the peak times. 15 teams, about 7-8 CFM. 25 teams, about 10CFM. 40 teams, 16 CFM....

This is just an opinion, but there is not a field in existance that benefits from a 3.5 CFM compressor. They are a bandaid and waste of money. Bauer has it about right with their marketing. The 3.5 CFM machines are "player series", good for a couple of players. The 5-7 cfm machines are called "team series", good for a few teams. Field series machines are 10 CFM or larger.

Long answer, but the 6000PSI tank will fill about 10 empty 68/4500s before it goes below 4500 psi. They another 10 till it nears 3K. Maybe 35 usable fills. Hope this helps.
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Old 05-07-2006, 11:10 AM #10
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By the way, curly, players fill every game. Games last 10 minutes. Many fill 2-3 times between games because of tank cooling and pump the fill button or lever repeatedly thinking they will get a little extra. Line losses start adding up. 2800 PSI fills are no longer acceptable at any field or store and 4500 PSI is almost standard. 5K is prefered. It is very different from the scuba industry in that scuba shops have all week to fill banks or rental tanks. Paintball players don't use their compressors hardly at all except during rushes and the your compressor is never big enough.
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Old 05-07-2006, 12:03 PM #11
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thanx for the info EZ air, i would be happy with a small 3000 psi compressor if we could get it fairly cheap, like i said we're buying a 5 man airball field to run team practices on and we need an air source other than my scuba tank for 10 guys
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Old 05-21-2006, 09:46 AM #12
The Curly One
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Thanks for all of the responses

This is a difficult question and yes, it would be real nice for me if everyone bought 20 CFM, 6000 PSI, $20,000 compressors. Then add another $10,000 for cascade systems and fill stations. The reality it is not in most peoples budget so they buy what they can afford. Most people do not need that much compressor anyway.

We have hundreds of happy customers with our 3.5 CFM compressors and yes some do come back and buy a larger one when the budget affords it. Plus some of the larger compressors are just to big to take to some locations. We have to work with what we got and what their needs are. A good compressor can make you more money than it cost on selling air. If they get the right one.

That is the whole reason for my asking the question in the first place. just how much compressor do you need for how many players? Curly
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