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Old 03-13-2006, 08:25 PM #1
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Netting Questions

Just wondering what you guys have used for net and also what type of poles and the spacing. I'm looking to get something around the 16' height with it being half full and half less stopper. Also any advise on what type of pole either go utility poles or 4X4 or 4X6 and if getting them 20' is long enough. I spoke with a couple of netting companies but they don't offer any advise on what kind of poles to use and the spacing. So any advise I will greatly take it thanks.
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Old 03-14-2006, 02:05 AM #2
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if im not mistaken i think the distance between poles is up to your insurance company. field near me has 10 foot netting with 10 feet between poles. they use 4x6 id say. if you go higher than 10 feet you should use telephone poles or set up a way to take your netting down if it gets to windy. just coming from experience, i dont own or work at a field just seen stuff happen.
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Old 03-14-2006, 03:13 AM #3
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I'm using 30 ft fir utility poles. Spacing about 30 ft apart. It gets super expensive man, trust me on that.
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Old 03-14-2006, 07:16 AM #4
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I used 4" surplus pipe set 4' deep, spaced 25' apart. With cable at the top circling the entire field, guy wires at the corners, pull her tight and leave it up! except when hurricanes blow(60-75)

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Old 03-14-2006, 07:56 AM #5
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One thing I thought of using was 6" diameter poles. But the net I'm looking into using is a 8' heavy and 8' light. Just wanted to see what other fields have used. Also hanging some 8' heavy and 4' light. Just curious if any other fields what kind of netting they have and the method they used with poles and the spacing.

Oh I know it gets exspensive but just wondering if 6" diameter poles is going to be sturdy enough we have lots of cover around the field so wind isn't going to be too big of an issue.

Hey Mcgyver where did you order your pipe through a fencing company or like a Home Depot type place.
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Old 03-14-2006, 08:20 AM #6
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Id like to find a place for the white netting.
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Old 03-14-2006, 09:41 AM #7
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my advice:

do not skimp out on poles. I learned the hard way. I had used 4" x 4" x 18' poles cemented in the ground spaced at 15' apart for 2 100' x 150' speedball fields. i used the 17' netting to prevent bounce overs which happen uncontrollably. well as soon as i got it al done and had the nets up i realized...the nets are like sails in the wind. all the work and material lasted for 4 months and i lost everything from the wind. i paintstakingly re did everything with utility poles and 3/16" dia steel cable and after a year have yet to have any more problems. i basically learned a $9000.00 (materials and labor both times combined) lesson the hard way. don't waste your time with hybrid 2 piece netting. get solid netting. you will pay more for the "hybrid netting anyways

are your fields airball? the paint bounces off the bunkers crazy, and up over the nets. what is the topography of your field? is it down in a valley'ish type area? are people staged right near the field? id the answer is yes to any of these questions, do not go any lower than 17' on netting. just my advice to ya!

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Old 03-14-2006, 10:38 AM #8
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There are two approaches you can take to this: brute strength or mechanical advantage.

Windload on netting can be considerable. We did some calculations and found that a 70MPH wind on a 300' span of netting causes a wind load of more than 32,000lbs. That's a LOT of force. When we designed our mobile netting system, large heavy poles sunk into the ground were not an option. We needed something relatively light that had minimal impact to the ground.

When we got to looking at it, we realized that the majority of the windload is transferred to the tops of the poles. In effect, the pole acted as a giant lever. Force was applied at the top, and the point where the pole met the ground became the fulcrum. We realized to counter the windload, it was better to counter it at the top of the pole, rather than at the ground.

What we came up with was the use of guide wires, perpendicular to the netting. By going this route, we were able to use 1.5" box steel for our poles. The system withstood a sustained windload of 40MPH, with gusts up to 60MPH, for a period of 3 days.

If I were to build a permanent field, I'd go this route. Sink telephone poles at the corners of the field. I'd secure those poles with two guide wires anchored by 30" ground anchors. I'd then do the poles between the telephone poles with 6"x6" poles. Those poles would be secured with a single guide wire outside the field, and an overhead wire connecting to the pole on the opposite side of the field. It'd look something like this:
________________________
/|______________________|\

Netting would be suspended using load rated eye bolts (with closed eyes) and quick-links. The netting cable and guide wires would be constructed of coated aircraft wire. The netting would be hybrid netting with grommets. All poles would be cemented in place.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:43 AM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hired_gat
Id like to find a place for the white netting.
White netting might look good but will be harder to see through.


On subject...

There is a local field (not mine) that has their outdoor netting setup with phone poles. They also have pulleys and ropes so they can hoist the nets up at the end of the day or when it gets really windy.
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Old 03-14-2006, 11:31 AM #10
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only place i've seen white netting used is at a indoor facility, making it brighter inside to see better.

target indy: dam always impressed with your wealth of knowledge! the portable field sytem you have sounds very very interesting!!!!!
i also forgot to mention i have all my poles anchored to the ground via earth anchors 6' in the ground, basically the way your diagram shows. kind of overkill but after the loss of all that money i didn't want to take any chances!
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Old 03-14-2006, 11:41 AM #11
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Originally Posted by JUJU
...so wind isn't going to be too big of an issue.
Another very good way to hang netting:
Install horizontal wires at the top and bottm of the poles, and four diagonal wires. Two on each diagonal, one on either side of the netting.
Use eyelets and hooks/loops to attach the net to the top and bottom wires and pass the netting between the diagonal wires.
The diagonal wires will limit the netting’s movement and provide support in the wind. The netting will billow less and be put under less strain. With the diagonal wiring, poles (part of the
Quote:
Originally Posted by hired_gat
Id like to find a place for the white netting.
Can’t vouch for the product, but here’s a link for 50% white netting:
http://www.thenaturalhome.com/shadecloth.htm

And as Target Indy has pointed out: Guy Wires are your friend.

Remeber the insurance requirements: No bunker closer than 15' to netting. So, "out-of-bounds" should be 5-10' inside netting. This gives you room to use guy wire on the inside of the field. Use more netting over these guy wires so that they are clearly visible and no one is tempeted to run under/through them.

But, an advantage to TargetIndy's approach of wiring from pole to pole over the field. You could run 1/2" netting suspended from the top wire to fully enclose the field. Even the wildest of bounces wouldn't get out and even direct shots would be contained.

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Old 03-14-2006, 11:55 AM #12
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yes very good point.... i also forgot to say i did that as well ( i only have had one cup of coffee this morning bare with me) between the poles i made a "X" with the wires on both sides to limit the movement. at first i only did it on one side but quickly realized the wind shifts! i used carabeaners to connect the netting to the cables, so at the end of the day i can slide the netting to the poles and tie it up to prevent damage from wind storms. i also used turnbuckles on each run of cable bothe sides to adjust the tension on the cable so there is no unsightly sagginf of the cable when the netting is extended.
heres a few pics of the netting and cables. look closely and you will see the "x" of cables. theres also a picture of the last section of netting left standing after our first attempt at netting! Enjoy

the netting tied up at poles:


before i doubled "x" 'd each side of the netting


a picture of the last section remaining of our first attempt at netting with the 4" x 4"s. there is also the telephone poles, and cable now attached to it.


as you can kind of see, my field is VERY exposed to the wind
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Old 03-14-2006, 12:27 PM #13
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I use Trees I order all of my netting through springfield paintball. SO far they have been really good to me and their prices are decent too.
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Old 03-14-2006, 12:38 PM #14
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I've chatted w/ a lot of people about how they did their netting. I drew up a little design about how I'm going to do it that I have at home and will post up tonite.

One thing I was told was to not to guide wires, but to use another pole stabalize the corner poles.

Instead of guide wires like this: /|--------|\

Use poles on the inside, like this |\------------/|

Of course the poles would counteract the force of the cable both ways force was being applied, meaning 3 poles per corner. Expensive, but that way I don't have to have guide wires and I've been told the wood will be stronger and more supportive.

Thoughts on that?
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Old 03-14-2006, 12:51 PM #15
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i honestly think that is total overkill, and waste of money. As long as the utility poles are at least 8 feet in the ground, the guy wires are more than enough. i have had the nets up on a saturday during the summer and we had a fast moving storm front come throu with 65 mph + winds and the poles didnt budge (yes i was out there watching almost having a heart attack) at that point the only thing that will happen is the netting will rip and tear away at it's weakest point.
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Old 03-14-2006, 02:35 PM #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Investorguy
I've chatted w/ a lot of people about how they did their netting. I drew up a little design about how I'm going to do it that I have at home and will post up tonite.

One thing I was told was to not to guide wires, but to use another pole stabalize the corner poles.

Instead of guide wires like this: /|--------|\

Use poles on the inside, like this |\------------/|

Of course the poles would counteract the force of the cable both ways force was being applied, meaning 3 poles per corner. Expensive, but that way I don't have to have guide wires and I've been told the wood will be stronger and more supportive.

Thoughts on that?
Both ways would probably work, though I have seen a similar wood system fail. Granted, steel cable (wire rope) is pretty strong. We also gave a lot of thought about the sequence of failure, should the windloads overwhelm the system. The last thing we wanted was to have a cable snap, so our cables are over-sized, compared to the work loads of the rest of the system. Our first point of failure is the bottom of the nets, followed by the connecting point between the cable and the netting itself. In an overload situation, the net will either flap freely in the wind, or detach itself from the cable. If it works as planned, the poles and cables should remain in position. Everything has a redundency built into it.

For the guide wires, we actually use racheting cargo straps that are rated in excess of 5000lbs. The cost is comparable, and they're better suited for our purposes, since our equipment travels from site to site.

Do searches on McMaster for the following items, and it'll give you an idea of some of the hardware we use.
Load-Rated Eye Bolts
Ground Anchors
Quick Links
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Old 03-14-2006, 02:43 PM #17
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Originally Posted by Investorguy
Instead of guide wires like this: /|--------|\
Use poles on the inside, like this |\------------/|
Okay, the reason for poles/wires:
A pole without any other support experiences a bending force due to the wind load. If the pole is not strong enough to resist the bending force, it breaks right at the ground or at a weak point.
If the pole is not buried deep enough, the force that is generated by the soil cannot overcome the torque created by the horizontal load on the pole and the bottom will rotate and pull out/the pole will fall.
If you add a brace (an angled pole) or a wire (guy wire), the horizontal forces are taken up by the guy wire or brace and the pole need only be strong enough to support the vertical load and a tiny fraction of the horizontal load (really, it just needs to be rigid enough to transmit the load to the top and bottom of the pole).
The bottom of the pole then doesn’t need to buried anywhere near as deep as the ground has to support/resist horizontal forces only and not induced torque.
Differences between guy wires and poles.
Poles can transmit force by compression and by tension. So, |\ or /| are the same thing. So, it would kind of stupid to place the brace inside the playing area. However, a brace is usually more resistant if placed in compression as the forces will push the brace into the ground. So, if “>>>” is the prevailing wind:
>>> |\
Guy wires can only transmit tension forces. They can only pull. To support a pole with guy wires requires a minimum of 3 wires, best if each equally spaced around the pole. In 2D from the side:
/|\
But, if the top of each pole around the perimeter is connected by guy wire, then you already have an unbalanced 3 wire setup. Connecting the pole tops across the field will give perfect force distribution.
Then the question is, “Do you want to have long wires is a grid pattern over the field?”
Well, there would be another option. The wires over the field don’t have to go to the tops of poles directly opposite, nor do the wires connecting to the ground need to be perpendicular to the perimiter. The sum of the forces from the wires simply needs to negate. So, if you can get at least 3 wires pulling in different directions (with no two directly opposite), you’d be all set.
Another point: Except for convenience, the top of the pole is not necessarily the ideal place to attach the brace or guy wire not the only place. But whether it’s a good idea to attach closer to the center of the induced force or not depends on the stiffness and bending strength of the pole.
Flexible poles might require mid height guy wires for example.
Best analogy is erecting a tent. With guy wires, done correctly, only the stakes need to be in the ground. The poles can just rest on the surface held in place by the downward pressure created by the guy wire system.
Another note on wires: If the wires are spread horizontally across the field, you’ll always have slack in the side poles and droop in the wire (to get the wire completely horizontal would require an INFINITE force). A taller center pole will lower the required tension in the horizontal wires and stabilize the whole structure. For best strength, the outer poles should angle outwards.
For a clearer picture, look at how part and circus tents are built.
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Old 03-14-2006, 02:48 PM #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Investorguy
I'm using 30 ft fir utility poles. Spacing about 30 ft apart. It gets super expensive man, trust me on that.
I got to thinking about this, and realized that's a REALLY expensive route to go. Your corner poles take most of the load, since that's the point where the netting cable terminates to the ground. The poles in the run (between the corners) take a different load, mostly a vertical load. A smaller pole can be used with guide wires, and you'll probably come out a lot cheaper. The guide wires will handle your wind load, leaving your poles to simply handle the vertical load.

I think you'll also find that utility poles are rougher on netting than posts. The poles I've seen used around here usually have a fair amount of splinters that like to catch the netting.
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Old 03-14-2006, 02:50 PM #19
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Our field is in a valley and surrounded by trees so wind isn't going to get to high. So what I'm getting from everyone is not getting the hybrid netting. Only thing I see being an advantage is the higher portion is thinner so less wind drag. Also I guess utility poles for the corners and then I guess 6" diameter poles for the rest. Anyone have some places they have gotten net from. The only place I can find is KPRO and Paintballnetting.com, I still think getting a hybrid would be nice again for wind resistance. Also looking to put in a pulley system so if it going to get really windy we will lower our netting but more than likely only when its going to get anything over 30MPH which is very rare here in the Midwest. Anyone have thoughts on that.

So using Utility Poles on the Corner
6" diameter poles 30' spacing putting 5' in the ground and using a 12' heavy net and 8' light net on top.
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Old 03-14-2006, 02:59 PM #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUJU
Our field is in a valley and surrounded by trees so wind isn't going to get to high. So what I'm getting from everyone is not getting the hybrid netting. Only thing I see being an advantage is the higher portion is thinner so less wind drag. Also I guess utility poles for the corners and then I guess 6" diameter poles for the rest. Anyone have some places they have gotten net from. The only place I can find is KPRO and Paintballnetting.com, I still think getting a hybrid would be nice again for wind resistance. Also looking to put in a pulley system so if it going to get really windy we will lower our netting but more than likely only when its going to get anything over 30MPH which is very rare here in the Midwest. Anyone have thoughts on that.
The hybrid netting is worth it, in my opinion. We've used three sets of netting with our system: Stopper Netting, PMI's netting, and K-Pro's netting. The first set, Stopper Netting wasn't suited for our purposes because it didnt have grommeted and taped edges. We also felt that the netting degraded rather quickly. The PMI netting had the taped and grommeted edges and was a foot taller. Because it wasn't hybrid netting, the windloads were substantial, and we found it difficult to raise the nets in anything above a gentle breeze (spent a lot of time wrestling them in place). Our final (and current) set of netting was K-Pro's hybrid netting. The net has held up well and we've found that the windload is significantly less. I can't come up with a good reason NOT to use hybrid netting. Any additional cost is easily offset by the labor it took to raise the non-hybrid netting. Every hour I save setting up our fields saves me about $50 an hour in labor.
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Old 03-14-2006, 03:19 PM #21
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