Mag Myths.

[Nerobro]

I invite you to post your favorite mag myths. I've got quite a list of them compiled myself, but I'm curious what you guys can come up with first. Post away!

[dager]

not very accuate
chop balls all the time
shoot down (excludes bad gas setups)

[snyiper]

Poor performance on co2 ( is this myth?)
Magic box improves distance
8 hole mod helps recharge
inaccurate compared to cocker
less range than cocker
on/off valve will improve recharge (myth?)
This is just a few I have come across, I have found AGD has done their homework on this gun and anything other than a barrel and a foamie bolt is just a waste. Of course this is only my opinion.
I currently have a PTP Vert micromag with J&J ceramic barrel stone stock.

[lonsch]

mags are gas hogs

[Nerobro]

"mags are gas hogs"

Sadly this one is not a myth. 900 shots off of a 20oz is by no means exceptional gas efficancy. The automag is still better than say a vm-68, or a shocker, but that does not place it in the class of guns with "good" efficancy.

There IS a fix to automag efficancy, but it's a poor fix at best. Raising the operaing pressure of the gun helps efficancy on the automag. The oppisite is also true, lowering the operating pressure reduces effiancy.

AGD did produce an automag that runs at a higher pressure than normal, it's called the hypermag. they also did produce a mag that ran at a lower pressure... AKA smartmag. You can guess which one was more efficant.

[lonsch]

if you put a lapco or other barrel with minamal porting you can get good shot counts out of a mag 800+ with a 68/3000

[Grand_]

nerobro-
why in hell are you using co2 on a mag anyways?

[Nerobro]

"nerobro-
why in hell are you using co2 on a mag anyways?"

That was the last time I took really good count of my efficancy on my mag. You're straw manning the statement anyway. The gas used has no real effect on efficancy. And my statement was backed up by the next poster anyway.

800 of a 68ci/3000 tank is NOTHING to write home about. That seems to agree with what I've seen on my mag. I'm yet to get a good shot count on it yet though. I've never really run the tank empty. (my cocker, even in it's decrepit state does about as well)

[lonsch]

well then you must be a realy hard guy to please. while 800 is not the best its far from being a "gas hog"

[Nerobro]

I am a VERY hard person to please. If the automag were efficant enough, it wouldn't have a problem using co2. the real conflict between co2 and automags is not liquid, it's the gun using so much gas that the tank freezes solid. The automag preforms admirably as the tank freezes, and if you don't push it, you won't even chop paint.

What would be ideal, is the automag being able to shoot 1200-1300 shots off a 20oz tank. That would easily allow the automag to do it's job on co2. BUT, that's a 50% increse in efficancy, the likelyhood of that, is, sadly, nill at best. SO... We have our godsend, N2.

[Rob_AGD]

NeroBro - You are way miss informed on this issue.

First off the mag isnt a gas hog. It a matter of you barrel preferance. A non ported barrel with a good id/od match will get you almost 1000 shots from a 68/3000 N2 system and well over 1200 shots froma 20oz co2 tank. (btw - I have gotten 1200 from a 20oz with a 12" AA SP barrel in 75 degree weather )

CO2 being a denser and HEAVIER gas will use less pressure to get the same ammount of energy because the gas has more mass than say... N2 or Compressed air.

C02 = 22 N2 = 14 so CO2 has about 60% more mass per mol than N2 just to give you an idea.

Lower pressure = less effectent is correct and the same goes with the Higher pressure as being more effecnt. AGD did a lot of testing to find a happy mark between them and thats about 400psi. That will change with differnt barrels/Paints and sometimes aftermarket bolts.

Smooth 10-12" non ported barrel will be the most efficent
Long 14"+ Ported 2 peice ( SP, CP, Dye etc ) much less efficent.

Paint fit will also effect gas use

Ball / barrel fit loose and sloppy will need more gass to get to speed, a nice snug but not over tight will ue less gas to get the same work done.

-Robert

[niteHawk]

Hey Rob, is there anywhere that Tom posted all of the research he did regarding paintall - when I took the first Cert class in DC, he came out with all of the charts, and math that he used to prove/disprove everything from ball deformation and rifiling on barrels, etc...
I have founf that it would be nice to point people to this info sometime when they just do not whnt to listen to reason or physics...

nH

[Rob_AGD]

Thats on the back burner right now, It will be an entire web site at some point but Emags, Flatlines and a some of the new products they are working on take presidence over getting the paintballphysics.com site up.

-Robert

[Nerobro]

Appearantly I'm not THAT far off base with my explanation. The odd thing is, that I've never seen an automag get 1200 shots off a 20oz. I'm sure that with a PERFECT bore match, it's feasable... Maybe.. Maybe your 20oz was overfilled?

I don't see the relevance of the rant comparing co2 to n2. I understand the difference between the gasses. The Density difference is WHY n2 runs at a slightly higher pressure than co2. Woohoo. My comparisons still stand.

The point is, that in general. Even well set up automags, are not efficant enough to run on co2.

To be truely effective on co2, the automag would need to be efficant enough to have the tank of co2 sustain sufficant pressure, even during extended strings of shots.

I am correct on this issue. (again, not to say you're wrong. Just, I'm not misinformed.)

[lichen]

This is unrelated really, but I just thought people would like to know how to properly spell "efficient."

[xXAGDXx]

nothing there a lot better than cockers o yea sure they are acurate but same as mags and plus how bout this no timeing problems and all that stuff so ha

[[NA]WARLORD]

My first Mag ran on co2, it had a 3 foot coiled SS hose, SP 8 hole mod ( just mod, not black box), stock on/off ( the one SP supplied never worked right) Expansion chamber, and an anti-syphon 20 oz, mounted at an angle at the bottomline, It worked flawlessly, until the Tank froze from rapid firing the trigger during extended shot strings.

I agree with Nero, I have never seen a Mag get more than 8-900 shots off a c02 tank, but I dont have the expertise with Mags that Rob AGD has either. I'm not saying it cant be done, but realistically, with HPA, why would you run c02 on a Mag nowadays anyway?

Ohh, back to the topic, "Mags are outdated"

[Army]

Don't forget too heavy!

Barrel wobbles like a garden hose!

Open bolt's are less accurate!

Can't use .45 grips on them!........well, OK, that's not too much of a myth:D

[RoadDawg]

My favorite is you have to send it to AGD to fix the thing.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by xXAGDXx
nothing there a lot better than cockers o yea sure they are acurate but same as mags and plus how bout this no timeing problems and all that stuff so ha
You don't know anything about Cockers, stop passing around second hand info.

[Chowda]

Ok, here we go:

-Mags have bad range.
-Mags are innaccurate due to the open bolt design.
-Mags can shoot 26 bps!!!
-Mags don't have a lot of upgrades
-Mags suck because pros don't use them (Manny Francisca, anyone?)

[Some Dude]

Actually mags can shoot 26bps. If you include the RT pro as a "mag" :) But then again that isn't exactly bad is it?

[Chowda]

True, it can, but can you? That was my point. When I was at the field, some kid had to say, "Whoa! Those shoot 26 bps! Not fair!"

[Gsxer]

Originally posted by Chowda
Ok, here we go:

-Mags have bad range.
-Mags are innaccurate due to the open bolt design.
-Mags can shoot 26 bps!!!
-Mags don't have a lot of upgrades
-Mags suck because pros don't use them (Manny Francisca, anyone?)

Dude thats Manny Francia, and yea he shoots a mag. Cuz I know him.

[SynTek]

I disproved the shorter range of the mag vs cocker myth a few weeks ago. I have pics and such and I could post them somewhere if anyone is interested. In short, when the guns used equal length freak barrels, in the stock configuration with Evil paint, the shots dropped at around 150 feet (Used a clamp and a level to make this test fair). The accuracy however is not a myth, at least in the stock configuration. The Cocker has more consistant velocity, which lends it slightly better accuracy, but it's only notacible at ranges greater than 50 feet.

[Meph]

Well some of the myths are really half-truths.

"Automag is a blender."
For for the most part unless it has a LVL10, yeah. Honestly the only reason I finally bought another mag was because of the simple fact that the LVL10 came out. Otherwise I'd never dream of it. May not be to everybody a blender, but even when I only shoot 4bps to absolutely make sure I can't possibly short stroke.... it still chopped.

"It's a gas hog."
Well sorry, but it is. It's not the worst by any means, that title is owned by the Shocker. But They aren't efficient either. When I want efficiency I'll take my Free Flowed cocker over a mag. So be my guest and rant about CO2 vs Compressed air... not even sure why that got started. But despite that, Mag = sucks air faster than Mega Maid!

"Automag. Does that mean it's automatic?"
Well this is more just a newbie question. But I get asked it every now and then, it's quite entertaining.

"If mags are so great then why don't pro tournament teams use them?"
Well because those teams are tools. And rightfully so, I think they should be. The reason you see the Timmy fad and also Matricies and Impulses so often.... those companies sponsor the teams. The players are not using what they prefer always, and even if they are. They are all using what their sponsor tells them (reason why I made tool reference). So it's not about mags being bad, it's just that my guess being AGD doesn't have that much bank to piss away like say Smart Parts.
After all, Smart Parts sells shocker, impulse, and soon nerve. They ALL have different barrels. And SP just happens to sell Teardrops and Freaks. So take one guess where a lot of their $ comes from. That's right, a 10 dollar barrel system sold for 150 bucks. Not too shabby, eh?

"Mags are heavy."
Well they are. It's not enough to make your arm fall off, but it is very noticably heavier. You hold a Diadem and then hold an Emag and tell me it isn't obviously heavier. If mags weren't heavy you wouldn't see all this production of ULE stuff now would you? Of course not.


I mean yes there are myths, like "it's slow" or "it's inaccurate" or those. But those are told by people who don't even know how to load a hopper properly. Let alone actually teach themselves the fine arts of snap-shooting and aiming. But along with these bupkiss myths, there are truths to some of them.

Inefficient? Yeah, but not that bad. Heavy? Yep, but after a tank and hopper full of paint so isn't every marker! Blender? Why do you think the Warp Feed was REALLY made, to lower hopper profile? Hell no, to actually feed fast enough so the RTs wouldn't chop!

Not that the mags are bad or that these are any reason to not get them, just that don't be so quick to jump down peoples' throats when they mention these things about the precious almighty mag.

[SynTek]

Keeping a mag from chopping is a hard prospect with the LVL 10. First of all, you have to be in ideal temperature and humidity range. In cold weather, my mag will chew up paint no matter how fast or slow I fire (probably about 90%, and this has been a problem with 2 mags and different brands of paint). However, the biggest chopping problem is because of its terrible trigger pull. It has to be pulled at exactly the right speed and release ad the exact right time to avoid the short stroke and the near inevitible chopped ball that will follow. Single shot this is a simple enough prospect, but once you start getting into the higer ROF range, the odds of missing a shot dramaticly increase. I also don't think the mag classifies as a hog by any stretch of the immagination. It sits comfortably in the middle of the pack, and if average gas effeciency is a hog, then the shocker must empty a 88/45 bottle in a hopper. Not to say its effeciency is anything to brag about. Mine gets just over 1000 shots on an 88/45 tank. In the end I have enough air to shoot my entire pack, so for me it works out. I may see this as being a problem if you feel the need to throw an entire case in a game, simply because of the size of the tank needed.

[xen_100]

Originally posted by SynTek
Keeping a mag from chopping is a hard prospect with the LVL 10. ..............................However, the biggest chopping problem is because of its terrible trigger pull. It has to be pulled at exactly the right speed and release ad the exact right time to avoid the short stroke and the near inevitible chopped ball that will follow. Single shot this is a simple enough prospect, but once you start getting into the higer ROF range, the odds of missing a shot dramaticly increase.


how do you figure? a properly setup LVL10 will not chop paint, plain and simple.............and your mag must be mested up. I can rip about 9-11 BPS on a classic valve with no skipped shots or short stroking.

[Chowda]

Originally posted by SynTek
I disproved the shorter range of the mag vs cocker myth a few weeks ago. I have pics and such and I could post them somewhere if anyone is interested. In short, when the guns used equal length freak barrels, in the stock configuration with Evil paint, the shots dropped at around 150 feet (Used a clamp and a level to make this test fair). The accuracy however is not a myth, at least in the stock configuration. The Cocker has more consistant velocity, which lends it slightly better accuracy, but it's only notacible at ranges greater than 50 feet.
Actually the mag would have more consistent veloicty. And it is proved to be more accurate in its stock confirguration (with a barrel of course) than a cocker. Check out the pbstar.com automag and cocker reviews and tell me for yourself.

[xen_100]

Originally posted by Chowda
Actually the mag would have more consistent veloicty. And it is proved to be more accurate in its stock confirguration (with a barrel of course) than a cocker. Check out the pbstar.com automag and cocker reviews and tell me for yourself.

but, as the pbstar review said, the stock cocker has a horible stock barrel. the automag has no barrel, so they had no choice but to use an aftermarket one. I will agree, that both a stock automag and a WGP stock cocker with the same paint and barrel will have very similar results.

[dahoeb]

well the stock barrel isn't going to make the consistency THAT horrible. the reg it comes with was s***. they switched regs and look at how much it improved. some of it may have been the paint/barrel, but remember that the barrel that they were using on the mag wasn't that wonderful either; it was a 35 or 40 dollar progressive barrel, the cheapest smart parts has. they reviewed spyders on that site that had better accuracy that the 2000 cocker which was reviewed. but maybe the 03's are better and more refined.